Subject: Kupetzky image

From: Andreas Schlegel <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 08:54:00 +0200

Dear all,

Thanks a lot for all support!

The important detail on this picture is for us the bass string of the 11th course which seems to be a string which is overspun with silver wire. 
Important other details for the datation are given by Jiri Arnet:
http://baroque-lute.webnode.cz/products/portrait-of-david-hoyer-playing-lute/

But the most important question is the date of the portrait. The date is not 1711 as written in some articles and as file name, but 1716. I found this on p. 25-28 of:
http://www.mdz-nbn-resolving.de/urn/resolver.pl?urn=urn:nbn:de:bvb:12-bsb10915517-1

Johann C. Füssli: Leben Georg Philipp Rugendas und Johann Kupezki, Zürich 1758

So it's one year after the Frauenzimmer-Lexikon, in which the first time the use of overspun strings on a lute instrument is mentioned - as far as I know. (The Piccinini citation is very unclear and it's not very probable that he meant overspun strings.)

All the best

Andreas

---

From: "Mimmo Peruffo" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 09:55:15 +0200

Thanks Andreas
I would give here my small contribute
Today the use of wound strings for the german  d minor lutes is well 
demostrated
You Andreas discovered the Lexicon of 1715 that actually was the fist german 
source discovered.

Then I was lucky to discovered some more sources  that mentioned wound 
strings  for the 11 and 13 d minor lutes: a german source of 1763; a french 
source of 1765 and a german source of 1795. There are some other sources 
but unfortunately In have some problem with the language and so I am not 
sure if these are mentioning lute wound strings
The problem today is not to know if the german lutes has wound strings: this 
is now very clear.

The problem is: which is the identity of these wound strings?

In those times they can be done using gut or  silk cores only; they can be 
done close or open wound

well, for some technical details (for example the thinnest metal wire 
available in those times and the relate metal drawing technology available 
etc etc) to me it is clear that they were open wound only (the 11 bass of 
the kupezky painting is probably an open wound: see that there are small 
little white spot in the string, exactly like in some  18 th C french violin 
paintings in matter of the 3rd string that in France was open wound)
Incidentally  these open wound were of common use in several instruments 
around the lute like the 5 course guitar, the 6 course mandolin,  bass gamba 
4th, violin 3rd.

Why not on the lute?? The open howver question is: what about the swan neck 
lute basses? I have the hole gauges of many bridges of these swan neck lutes 
that ranging from 1.4 mm till 1.9 mm on the 13 th bass course
Pure gut basses?  they are too dull, there is no any advantage on a 13 
course lute with the reader AND with wound strings. Wound strings? it is 
much more better and they give improvement (basically more sustain and clear 
sound)

So open wwound basses is the option, to me.
The surviving small piece of open wound strings of a raphael Mest lute can 
be a clear indication

Silk or gut cores?? this is a question that is not possible to solve easily. 
What it is clear is that they were OBLIGED to employ an open wound structure 
due to the fact that very thin metal wires were not available in the market, 
in those times. The thinner gauge available is the N 12 of the Nurnberg 
scale of wires and it is of .15 mm. On a close wound one can do just the 9 
bass down, no the 8,7,6, bass strings. on a 13 course lute with swan necks 
thuing are even worse.
I have tried an silk core open wound: guess thast?? The sound is terrible 
even changing the ratio between metal wires and the core  ect etc
At the end of the day, using the octave string and then made it half wound 
or a bit more ( Le Coq 1723; Corrette 1740's) ) make exactly an octave down 
at the same tension whose string density became twice of gut. so the octave 
is still necessary in the course

Mimmo.

-----Messaggio originale----- 
From: Andreas Schlegel
Sent: Saturday, April 8, 2017 8:54 AM
To: lute list ; Baroque Lute List
Subject: Kupetzky image

Dear all,

The important detail on this picture is for us the bass string of the 11th 
course which seems to be a string which is overspun with silver wire.
Important other details for the datation are given by Jiri Arnet:
http://baroque-lute.webnode.cz/products/portrait-of-david-hoyer-playing-lute/

But the most important question is the date of the portrait. The date is not 
1711 as written in some articles and as file name, but 1716. I found this on 
p. 25-28 of:
http://www.mdz-nbn-resolving.de/urn/resolver.pl?urn=urn:nbn:de:bvb:12-bsb10915517-1

Johann C. Füssli: Leben Georg Philipp Rugendas und Johann Kupezki, Zürich 
1758

So it's one year after the Frauenzimmer-Lexikon, in which the first time the 
use of overspun strings on a lute instrument is mentioned - as far as I 
know. (The Piccinini citation is very unclear and it's not very probable 
that he meant overspun strings.)

All the best

Andreas

---

From: Andreas Schlegel <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 12:04:36 +0200

Dear Mimmo,

> You Andreas discovered the Lexicon of 1715 that actually was the fist german source discovered.
I think it was Michael Treder who published first this source in his "Ein irdisches Vergnügen für Barocklaute" (I received an early version in 2010). Perhaps Tim Crawford knew the Lexikon earlier, but who knows? It was at least a topic in 2012 in Bemen at the Bach symposium and I already knew the citation by Michael and was surprised that Tim mentioned it, too, in his lecture.
Per Kjetil Farstad doen't mentioned in his "Lautenistinnen in Deutschland im 18. Jahrhundert" from 2011.

All the best,

Andreas

---

From: "Mimmo Peruffo" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 13:46:44 +0200

Thanks Andreas. I have to know that

Ah,  one more thing in matter of the 13 course swan neck  lute: There are 
some paintings were it is possible to 'see' white basses on the extended 
neck. Said that,. there is a well detaileed painting (David van Edward 
source) were the long diapasons are thick and in a grey colour. what to 
think?

One thing intrigue me: if the long basses were actually made of pure gut 
(and the risk is to have no advantage in the performances on a 13 course 
lute with the rider strung with wound strings), WHY the scale was limited to 
95 cms more or less only?  I would reach 120 cm almost just to still have 
the octaves to the basses and better performances over the wound strings  of 
the 13 course lutewith rider.
heck.
Mimmo

-----Messaggio originale----- 
From: Andreas Schlegel
Sent: Saturday, April 8, 2017 12:04 PM
To: Mimmo Peruffo
Cc: lute list ; Baroque Lute List
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Kupetzky image

Dear Mimmo,

> german source discovered.
I think it was Michael Treder who published first this source in his "Ein 
irdisches Vergnügen für Barocklaute" (I received an early version in 2010). 
Perhaps Tim Crawford knew the Lexikon earlier, but who knows? It was at 
least a topic in 2012 in Bemen at the Bach symposium and I already knew the 
citation by Michael and was surprised that Tim mentioned it, too, in his 
lecture.
Per Kjetil Farstad doen't mentioned in his "Lautenistinnen in Deutschland im 
18. Jahrhundert" from 2011.

All the best,

Andreas

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: "Mimmo Peruffo" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 13:46:44 +0200

-----Messaggio originale----- 
From: Andreas Schlegel
Sent: Saturday, April 8, 2017 12:04 PM
To: Mimmo Peruffo
Cc: lute list ; Baroque Lute List
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Kupetzky image

Dear Mimmo,

All the best,

Andreas

---

From: Andreas Schlegel <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 14:28:12 +0200

Dear Mimmo,

First of all:
Strings for bowed instruments and strings for plucked instruments are more or less the same in fabrication - but not the same in the concrete musical use, as you know. So it's clear to me that there's a difference between the introduction of new string types for the two categories of sound production.

We have an other thing to think about (I spoke in Bremen on that topic, too):
The string length of old instruments is not so "normalised" than we have it today! The old ones had instruments from 65.5 up to 80 - and for the Deutsche Theorbe (with tuning d' a d f A G ...) very close to the breaking point for a'=415 Hz and 250 Hz*m at 85.5 cm (Venere / Schelle Leipzig 3357) or 88 cm (Schelle 1728 Nürnberg MIR 574).
In the 1720ies we have many 13-course lutes with bass rider (f.ex. Edlinger) with 75-78 cm. (By the way: They were tuned in which pitch??? As close as possible to the breaking point [will be around e'/eb']? Lower?)
Lutes with swan neck up from c.1735 have again shorter string lengths.

My simplification is at moment:
The swan neck (and the long 13-course lutes with bass rider) was an answer to the not completely satisfying use of overwound strings (which were used for the lowest basses only!) and the relatio of 3:4 (around a fourth) between petit jeu and grand jeu allowed to go back to a stringing in entirely the same material (the ambitus for the tones was f'-A [32 halftones] but the ambitus for the string material was reduced with the swan neck to f'-D [27 halftones]). We have to see that the octaves on swan neck lutes are also more brilliant than on a bass rider system. 

You know that I have my Edlinger stringed with your open wound strings - and they work really well. But the main problem is the break from plain gut to overwound strings. My stringing with overwound strings from the 6th course down seems to be not historically correct - at least for the first decades (but is much better than a mix). I recorded the Rust and Hagen sonatas with violin with this strings - and the sound is really convincing.

There's one single instrument which is - in my opinion - converted for the use of overwound bass strings: the Venere / Schelle Leipzig 3357 which has no octaves in the grand jeu and which was a normal tiorba, but shortened in 1723/26. Perhaps the airplanes were invented in those times and it was more practical to have a smaller tiorba... ;-)

All the best,

Andreas

Am 08.04.2017 um 13:46 schrieb Mimmo Peruffo <[email-masked]>:

> Ah,  one more thing in matter of the 13 course swan neck  lute: There are some paintings were it is possible to 'see' white basses on the extended neck. Said that,. there is a well detaileed painting (David van Edward source) were the long diapasons are thick and in a grey colour. what to think?
> 
> One thing intrigue me: if the long basses were actually made of pure gut (and the risk is to have no advantage in the performances on a 13 course lute with the rider strung with wound strings), WHY the scale was limited to 95 cms more or less only?  I would reach 120 cm almost just to still have the octaves to the basses and better performances over the wound strings  of the 13 course lutewith rider.
> heck.
> Mimmo
> 
> 
> -----Messaggio originale----- From: Andreas Schlegel

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
[email-masked]

--

---

From: Mimmo <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 14:52:27 +0200

..thanks Andreas

   ..actually the working index of the majority od surviving and hoping
   not modified lutes and even 5 course guitars whose standard pitch is
   more or less can be know ( French pitch , German , Venetian pitch)
   raging from 220 till 235 Hz/mt that is the poit were a gut top string
   start to stop to follow the stress /strain proportion. After this limit
   the string go ahead to breack (this happen two sentitone far, more or
   less. Depend by the string)

   After that point a gut string do not stretch furthermore while the
   frequency start to increase in a very fast way even for few turn of the
   peg (daniello bartoli 1670 ca: a gut string breack when it cannot
   stretch furthermore )

   A working index of 250 is out of any possibility. There is another
   explanation that at present I do not have concerning the pitch
   standard

   Ciao

   Mimmo

   Il giorno 08 apr 2017, alle ore 14:28, Andreas Schlegel
   <[1][email-masked]> ha scritto:

     Dear Mimmo,

   First of all:

   Strings for bowed instruments and strings for plucked instruments are
   more or less the same in fabrication - but not the same in the concrete
   musical use, as you know. So it's clear to me that there's a difference
   between the introduction of new string types for the two categories of
   sound production.

   We have an other thing to think about (I spoke in Bremen on that topic,
   too):

   The string length of old instruments is not so "normalised" than we
   have it today! The old ones had instruments from 65.5 up to 80 - and
   for the Deutsche Theorbe (with tuning d' a d f A G ...) very close to
   the breaking point for a'=415 Hz and 250 Hz*m at 85.5 cm (Venere /
   Schelle Leipzig 3357) or 88 cm (Schelle 1728 Nürnberg MIR 574).

   In the 1720ies we have many 13-course lutes with bass rider (f.ex.
   Edlinger) with 75-78 cm. (By the way: They were tuned in which pitch???
   As close as possible to the breaking point [will be around e'/eb']?
   Lower?)

   The swan neck (and the long 13-course lutes with bass rider) was an
   answer to the not completely satisfying use of overwound strings (which
   were used for the lowest basses only!) and the relatio of 3:4 (around a
   fourth) between petit jeu and grand jeu allowed to go back to a
   stringing in entirely the same material (the ambitus for the tones was
   f'-A [32 halftones] but the ambitus for the string material was reduced
   with the swan neck to f'-D [27 halftones]). We have to see that the
   octaves on swan neck lutes are also more brilliant than on a bass rider
   system.

   You know that I have my Edlinger stringed with your open wound strings
   - and they work really well. But the main problem is the break from
   plain gut to overwound strings. My stringing with overwound strings
   from the 6th course down seems to be not historically correct - at
   least for the first decades (but is much better than a mix). I recorded
   the Rust and Hagen sonatas with violin with this strings - and the
   sound is really convincing.

   There's one single instrument which is - in my opinion - converted for
   the use of overwound bass strings: the Venere / Schelle Leipzig 3357
   which has no octaves in the grand jeu and which was a normal tiorba,
   but shortened in 1723/26. Perhaps the airplanes were invented in those
   times and it was more practical to have a smaller tiorba... ;-)

   All the best,

   Andreas

   Am 08.04.2017 um 13:46 schrieb Mimmo Peruffo
   <[2][email-masked]>:

     Thanks Andreas. I have to know that
     Ah,  one more thing in matter of the 13 course swan neck  lute:
     There are some paintings were it is possible to 'see' white basses
     on the extended neck. Said that,. there is a well detaileed painting
     (David van Edward source) were the long diapasons are thick and in a
     grey colour. what to think?
     One thing intrigue me: if the long basses were actually made of pure
     gut (and the risk is to have no advantage in the performances on a
     13 course lute with the rider strung with wound strings), WHY the
     scale was limited to 95 cms more or less only?  I would reach 120 cm
     almost just to still have the octaves to the basses and better
     performances over the wound strings  of the 13 course lutewith
     rider.
     heck.
     Mimmo
     -----Messaggio originale----- From: Andreas Schlegel
     Sent: Saturday, April 8, 2017 12:04 PM
     To: Mimmo Peruffo
     Cc: lute list ; Baroque Lute List
     Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Kupetzky image
     Dear Mimmo,

     You Andreas discovered the Lexicon of 1715 that actually was the
     fist german source discovered.

     I think it was Michael Treder who published first this source in his
     "Ein irdisches Vergnügen für Barocklaute" (I received an early
     version in 2010). Perhaps Tim Crawford knew the Lexikon earlier, but
     who knows? It was at least a topic in 2012 in Bemen at the Bach
     symposium and I already knew the citation by Michael and was
     surprised that Tim mentioned it, too, in his lecture.
     Per Kjetil Farstad doen't mentioned in his "Lautenistinnen in
     Deutschland im 18. Jahrhundert" from 2011.
     All the best,
     Andreas
     To get on or off this list see list information at
     [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   Andreas Schlegel
   Eckstr. 6
   CH-5737 Menziken
   +41 (0)62 771 47 07
   [4][email-masked]

   --

References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]
   2. mailto:[email-masked]
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   4. mailto:[email-masked]

---

From: Andreas Schlegel <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 15:17:58 +0200

We are speaking from the same - but in a different way:

I'm speaking from the real breaking point at 250 Hz*m and you from the "limit point" for the use, which is of course lower.

Ciao

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
[email-masked]

--

---

From: Mimmo <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 15:27:46 +0200

Ah ah

   You are right.

   Take care

   Il giorno 08 apr 2017, alle ore 15:17, Andreas Schlegel
   <[1][email-masked]> ha scritto:

   I'm speaking from the real breaking point at 250 Hz*m and you from the
   "limit point" for the use, which is of course lower.

   Ciao

   Am 08.04.2017 um 14:52 schrieb Mimmo <[2][email-masked]>:

       ..thanks Andreas
       ..actually the working index of the majority od surviving and
     hoping
       not modified lutes and even 5 course guitars whose standard pitch
     is
       more or less can be know ( French pitch , German , Venetian pitch)
       raging from 220 till 235 Hz/mt that is the poit were a gut top
     string
       start to stop to follow the stress /strain proportion. After this
     limit
       the string go ahead to breack (this happen two sentitone far, more
     or
       less. Depend by the string)
       After that point a gut string do not stretch furthermore while the
       frequency start to increase in a very fast way even for few turn
     of the
       peg (daniello bartoli 1670 ca: a gut string breack when it cannot
       stretch furthermore )
       A working index of 250 is out of any possibility. There is another
       explanation that at present I do not have concerning the pitch
       standard
       Ciao
       Mimmo
       Il giorno 08 apr 2017, alle ore 14:28, Andreas Schlegel
       <[1][3][email-masked]> ha scritto:
         Dear Mimmo,
       First of all:
       Strings for bowed instruments and strings for plucked instruments
     are
       more or less the same in fabrication - but not the same in the
     concrete
       musical use, as you know. So it's clear to me that there's a
     difference
       between the introduction of new string types for the two
     categories of
       sound production.
       We have an other thing to think about (I spoke in Bremen on that
     topic,
       too):
       The string length of old instruments is not so "normalised" than
     we
       have it today! The old ones had instruments from 65.5 up to 80 -
     and
       for the Deutsche Theorbe (with tuning d' a d f A G ...) very close
     to
       the breaking point for a'=415 Hz and 250 Hz*m at 85.5 cm (Venere /
       Schelle Leipzig 3357) or 88 cm (Schelle 1728 Nürnberg MIR 574).
       In the 1720ies we have many 13-course lutes with bass rider (f.ex.
       Edlinger) with 75-78 cm. (By the way: They were tuned in which
     pitch???
       As close as possible to the breaking point [will be around
     e'/eb']?
       Lower?)
       Lutes with swan neck up from c.1735 have again shorter string
     lengths.
       My simplification is at moment:
       The swan neck (and the long 13-course lutes with bass rider) was
     an
       answer to the not completely satisfying use of overwound strings
     (which
       were used for the lowest basses only!) and the relatio of 3:4
     (around a
       fourth) between petit jeu and grand jeu allowed to go back to a
       stringing in entirely the same material (the ambitus for the tones
     was
       f'-A [32 halftones] but the ambitus for the string material was
     reduced
       with the swan neck to f'-D [27 halftones]). We have to see that
     the
       octaves on swan neck lutes are also more brilliant than on a bass
     rider
       system.
       You know that I have my Edlinger stringed with your open wound
     strings
       - and they work really well. But the main problem is the break
     from
       plain gut to overwound strings. My stringing with overwound
     strings
       from the 6th course down seems to be not historically correct - at
       least for the first decades (but is much better than a mix). I
     recorded
       the Rust and Hagen sonatas with violin with this strings - and the
       sound is really convincing.
       There's one single instrument which is - in my opinion - converted
     for
       the use of overwound bass strings: the Venere / Schelle Leipzig
     3357
       which has no octaves in the grand jeu and which was a normal
     tiorba,
       but shortened in 1723/26. Perhaps the airplanes were invented in
     those
       times and it was more practical to have a smaller tiorba... ;-)
       All the best,
       Andreas
       Am 08.04.2017 um 13:46 schrieb Mimmo Peruffo
       <[2][4][email-masked]>:
         Thanks Andreas. I have to know that
         Ah,  one more thing in matter of the 13 course swan neck  lute:
         There are some paintings were it is possible to 'see' white
     basses
         on the extended neck. Said that,. there is a well detaileed
     painting
         (David van Edward source) were the long diapasons are thick and
     in a
         grey colour. what to think?
         One thing intrigue me: if the long basses were actually made of
     pure
         gut (and the risk is to have no advantage in the performances on
     a
         13 course lute with the rider strung with wound strings), WHY
     the
         scale was limited to 95 cms more or less only?  I would reach
     120 cm
         almost just to still have the octaves to the basses and better
         performances over the wound strings  of the 13 course lutewith
         rider.
         heck.
         Mimmo
         -----Messaggio originale----- From: Andreas Schlegel
         Sent: Saturday, April 8, 2017 12:04 PM
         To: Mimmo Peruffo
         Cc: lute list ; Baroque Lute List
         Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Kupetzky image
         Dear Mimmo,
         You Andreas discovered the Lexicon of 1715 that actually was the
         fist german source discovered.
         I think it was Michael Treder who published first this source in
     his
         "Ein irdisches Vergnügen für Barocklaute" (I received an early
         version in 2010). Perhaps Tim Crawford knew the Lexikon earlier,
     but
         who knows? It was at least a topic in 2012 in Bemen at the Bach
         symposium and I already knew the citation by Michael and was
         surprised that Tim mentioned it, too, in his lecture.
         Per Kjetil Farstad doen't mentioned in his "Lautenistinnen in
         Deutschland im 18. Jahrhundert" from 2011.
         All the best,
         Andreas
         To get on or off this list see list information at
         [3][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
       Andreas Schlegel
       Eckstr. 6
       CH-5737 Menziken
       +41 (0)62 771 47 07
       [4][6][email-masked]
       --
     References
       1. [7]mailto:[email-masked]
       2. [8]mailto:[email-masked]
       3. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
       4. [10]mailto:[email-masked]

   Andreas Schlegel
   Eckstr. 6
   CH-5737 Menziken
   +41 (0)62 771 47 07
   [11][email-masked]

   --

References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]
   2. mailto:[email-masked]
   3. mailto:[email-masked]
   4. mailto:[email-masked]
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. mailto:[email-masked]
   7. mailto:[email-masked]
   8. mailto:[email-masked]
   9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  10. mailto:[email-masked]
  11. mailto:[email-masked]