Subject: Baroque Lute Stringing

From: David Rastall <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 16:25:26 -0500

It seems I am back playing Baroque lute once again, after rather a long hiatus.  It’s been long enough that I have forgotten some of the points of conventional wisdom concerning stringing.  I’m playing an 11c lute currently strung with silver-wound basses and Pyramid nylon mids and trebles.  I’m not so much bothered by the sustain of the nylon strings, but if you folks can refresh my memory:  what is the best choice of basses to get a sustain which is not downright thunky or chunky, but has shorter sustain than the silver-wounds?

David R

---

From: Rob MacKillop <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 21:33:18 +0000

Hi David,

I'm hugely impressed with the new Aquila Loaded Nylgut - see their website for details. After three days they settled quickly into tuning, and I rarely have to tweak them. Good sound too. 

Rob MacKillop

> On 1 Feb 2017, at 21:25, David Rastall <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: Matthew Daillie <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 23:34:27 +0100

Of the main copper-wound strings available, the fullest sounding and 
brightest are the Kürschner followed by the Savarez, then the Aquila Ds 
and lastly the Aquila DEs, which are pretty dull (and are no longer 
being made although several retailers still have quite large stocks 
available).

As far as I am concerned the jury is still out on the Aquila loaded 
nylgut. Many of us have high hopes but there are production problems 
(there has only been one batch so far and many diameters are 
unavailable) and some strings can have considerably sideways amplitude 
when plucked (even causing them to catch neighbouring strings!) as well 
as intonation issues (but that is also true of a lot of wound strings).

Best,

Matthew

---

From: Wikla Arto <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 00:52:00 +0200

Hi

My first impressions of the Aquila loaded nylgut strings are very good 
(archlute cc, G and F; 2x5th, 6th and 7th).

My 1st check:
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7boXtpffL0&feature=youtu.be

And 3 recorded real pieces:
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV7q2jxMK3Q&feature=youtu.be
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yspjfd8HIlc&feature=youtu.be
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43ekVyr2BHI&feature=youtu.be

And much more use in continuo...

I recommend!

Arto

---

From: Mimmo <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 07:20:19 +0100

Well, I can add a few informations 
There are no production problems it shelf. I had an extruder broken so I was obliged to wait the time to fix it. After that I finished the raw material. I received it a week ago. 
They has more amplitude in the vibration whose problem is mostly because one should compensate the lack of tension when the strings are under tension. In practice they became thinner that any wound strings. In short, if the equivalent gut by calculation is 145 I raccomand  to install a 150 instead. So under tension the final gauge will be the suitable one.
Yes, there is no problem to switch to a more stiffer plastic blend. The problem is that we lost a bit of brightness. Is it a good idea ? I do not know, people has  the wound strings sound in comparation.
Take care 
Mimmo Peruffo 

> Il giorno 01 feb 2017, alle ore 23:34, Matthew Daillie <[email-masked]> ha scritto:
> 
> Of the main copper-wound strings available, the fullest sounding and brightest are the Kürschner followed by the Savarez, then the Aquila Ds and lastly the Aquila DEs, which are pretty dull (and are no longer being made although several retailers still have quite large stocks available).
> 
> As far as I am concerned the jury is still out on the Aquila loaded nylgut. Many of us have high hopes but there are production problems (there has only been one batch so far and many diameters are unavailable) and some strings can have considerably sideways amplitude when plucked (even causing them to catch neighbouring strings!) as well as intonation issues (but that is also true of a lot of wound strings).
> 
> Best,
> 
> Matthew
>

---

From: Matthew Daillie <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 10:21:55 +0100

Dear Mimmo,
Thank you for this information. I'm glad all the gauges of the new loaded nylgut strings will be available again soon.
Your suggestion to compensate for the extra amplitude by using higher tension makes sense but will you be making gauges above 2.2 for the 13th course of a baroque lute for example?
Could you explain why the thicker gauges look as though they are all of the same diameter? There is no difference in colour either which one would expect if there was more copper powder to make them denser.
Are you planning to make longer strings at some point for theorbos?
Best,
Matthew

> On Feb 2, 2017, at 7:20, Mimmo <[email-masked]> wrote:
>

---

From: Martin Shepherd <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 10:26:00 +0100

Dear All,

If we're really interested in how lutes might have been strung 
historically, I think it's important to take the historical evidence 
(very little of it, I know) as a starting point, rather than the habits 
of modern players using modern strings.

We have a lot of iconographic evidence (plus the evidence from measuring 
bridge holes) that bass strings were rather thin - so the conclusion 
that they were more dense than a plain gut string seems pretty well 
inescapable.

Having said that, the tensions which modern players expect may be too 
high, for several reasons.  One is that we are accustomed to wound 
strings, which are very flexible and don't work at all well if they are 
at too low a tension.  A related problem is that modern players tend to 
play much further from the bridge than their historical counterparts.

Another issue is that we have tended to assume roughly equal tension 
across all the strings, so we have not experimented much with a tapering 
of tension as we go down into the bass.  One interesting aspect of the 
iconography is that strings get progressively thicker as they go down 
into the bass, but not as much as one would expect if the tensions were 
equal.  To make this concrete, for a descent of an octave (maintaining 
equal tension) the string should double in diameter, so the 6th course 
on a 6c lute should be nearly twice the diameter of the 4th.

On the subject of string diameters, Mimmo estimates the thinnest string 
which could have been made in the past as .42-.44mm. Single top strings 
will need to be a higher tension than the individual strings of a 
course, but even so it is more or less inevitable that the tension must 
be tapered to some degree, otherwise bass strings (and tension) would be 
enormous.  Mimmo has recently written that equal tension is different 
from equal "feel", and I agree with his suggestion that (in order to 
maintain equal feel) thinner strings should therefore be at a higher 
tension than thicker ones.  I have done this as a matter of instinct for 
many years - using a higher tension on the second course than on the 
third, for example.  As an aside, I note that most of us have tended to 
use octaves at a lower tension than the fundamentals, but the string 
table in the Gaultier book (discovered by Andreas Schlegel), and my more 
recent experiments, suggest perhaps a more equal tension.

As far as the characteristics of the strings is concerned, there are 
some apparent contradictions in the historical evidence.  Many paintings 
give the impression that the strings were very floppy (compared to 
modern gut strings), with lengths of spare string dangling from the 
pegbox.  On the other hand, one of the tests for a good string 
recommended by Dowland is "stiffness to the finger" (assessed before 
putting the string on the lute by pressing the end of the string to see 
how bendy it is).  In terms of elasticity, Mace talks about a string 
stretching "an inch or two" in the winding up - suggesting a string much 
more elastic than almost any modern string.

Then we come to another apparent contradiction on the area of modern 
experiments.  I have found the Savarez KF strings (made from PVDF, much 
more dense then gut, so perhaps more like a "loaded" gut string as far 
as density is concerned) work very well, in spite of being very stiff 
and not very elastic.  They also work well at lower tensions than other 
types of string.  They are usually pretty true, and that helps.  The 
implication seems to be that a string which is sufficiently dense (and 
can therefore be thin) doesn't need to be very elastic in order to 
work.  I don't know how to reconcile this with the historical evidence, 
but it occurs to me that there is a difference between elasticity 
(stretchiness) and "sideways flexibility" or "floppy flexibility" (which 
it seems the old strings may have had).  Think of the difference between 
an rubber band and a piece of household string - the cotton string is 
very floppy but has very little elasticity.  All things considered I 
would definitely be interested to see Mimmo make a string with lower 
elasticity. Trueness is paramount - if a string is even slightly false 
the irregular pattern of vibration will make it rattle against the frets 
and it will never sound well even as an open string.

Just a few thoughts for you to chew on....

Martin

>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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From: Jarosław Lipski <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 10:50:04 +0100

Dear Mimmo,

Firstly I’d like to congratulate you for inventing a new type of bass strings, as those of us who would like to use plastic equivalent of gut had very little choice until now. Your CD strings sound nice with quite solid fundamental. The only problem that I found disturbing is their elasticity. I choose gauges using your advice, but they still tend to buzz against adjacent strings. I tried them on several lutes and only on those that have wide spacing I was able to play cleanly. In this case maybe your idea of using a stiffer plastic blend could be a good one. I can’t speak for everyone, but for me some loss of brightness wouldn’t matter at all.
Just my two cents ;)
Good luck and all the best!

Jaroslaw

> On 02 Feb 2017, at 07:20, Mimmo <[email-masked]> wrote:

---

From: "Mimmo Peruffo" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 10:53:52 +0100

Well, Tony Bailes mailed me that:

Writing in 1629 Francis Bacon stresses that low strings should produce a 
bass sound: “for we see, that in one of the lower strings of a lute, there 
soundeth not the sound of the treble, nor any mixt sound , but onely the 
sound of the base.”

Mimmo

ps: I can made them less stretchly using a different elastomer. the problem 
is that they became a bit darker in the sound. Any suggestion? I am ready to 
start with the big batch. I am a bit worry about those that like that they 
are in some way still close to the wound strings

-----Messaggio originale----- 
From: Martin Shepherd
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:26 AM
To: Mimmo ; Matthew Daillie
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

Dear All,

Martin

On 02/02/2017 07:20, Mimmo wrote:
> There are no production problems it shelf. I had an extruder broken so I 
> was obliged to wait the time to fix it. After that I finished the raw 
> material. I received it a week ago.
> They has more amplitude in the vibration whose problem is mostly because 
> one should compensate the lack of tension when the strings are under 
> tension. In practice they became thinner that any wound strings. In short, 
> if the equivalent gut by calculation is 145 I raccomand  to install a 150 
> instead. So under tension the final gauge will be the suitable one.
> Yes, there is no problem to switch to a more stiffer plastic blend. The 
> problem is that we lost a bit of brightness. Is it a good idea ? I do not 
> know, people has  the wound strings sound in comparation.
> Take care
> Mimmo Peruffo
>
>> and lastly the Aquila DEs, which are pretty dull (and are no longer being 
>> made although several retailers still have quite large stocks available).
>>
>> (there has only been one batch so far and many diameters are unavailable) 
>> and some strings can have considerably sideways amplitude when plucked 
>> (even causing them to catch neighbouring strings!) as well as intonation 
>> issues (but that is also true of a lot of wound strings).
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Matthew
>>
>>> It seems I am back playing Baroque lute once again, after rather a long 
>>> hiatus.  It’s been long enough that I have forgotten some of the points 
>>> of conventional wisdom concerning stringing.  I’m playing an 11c lute 
>>> currently strung with silver-wound basses and Pyramid nylon mids and 
>>> trebles.  I’m not so much bothered by the sustain of the nylon strings, 
>>> but if you folks can refresh my memory:  what is the best choice of 
>>> basses to get a sustain which is not downright thunky or chunky, but has 
>>> shorter sustain than the silver-wounds?
>>>
>>> David R
>>>
>>
>>

---

---

From: "Mimmo Peruffo" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 11:01:12 +0100

Mimmo again;
the Gualtier tbel hs a diffrent interpretation that those relate to gauges 
or gut ribbons.
I will do a article in matter in the next future.
I am going to believe that maybe is better to switch to another elastomer 
whose elasticity is less. I have have already done some tests and I must 
admit that I was in figth with me which put in the market. Tony Bailes topld 
me: pout the stiffer one because the osund is darker and they are  far less 
stretchly. Equal feel versus equal tension: well said dear Martin. there are 
other few things to consider; however the lute setup must be  done scaled.
Ciao
mimmo

-----Messaggio originale----- 
From: Martin Shepherd
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:26 AM
To: Mimmo ; Matthew Daillie
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

Dear All,

Martin

---

---

From: Jarosław Lipski <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 11:08:47 +0100

No problem at all, they could be darker (even better!). Anyway it’s quite a good idea IMHO. If some like overwounds they can always use just…ocerwounds;) I really can’t see any point in imitating overwounds.
Please let us know if you make a new stiffer batch.

JL

> On 02 Feb 2017, at 10:53, Mimmo Peruffo <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> Writing in 1629 Francis Bacon stresses that low strings should produce a bass sound: “for we see, that in one of the lower strings of a lute, there soundeth not the sound of the treble, nor any mixt sound , but onely the sound of the base.”
> 
> Mimmo
> 
> ps: I can made them less stretchly using a different elastomer. the problem is that they became a bit darker in the sound. Any suggestion? I am ready to start with the big batch. I am a bit worry about those that like that they are in some way still close to the wound strings
> 
> 
> -----Messaggio originale----- From: Martin Shepherd

---

From: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 10:53:17 +0000 (UTC)

Dear Mimmo,
   Thank you for your continuing efforts in manufacturing these strings.
   I agree with much of what has been said: - especially with Martin
   Shepherd about the unfortunate influence rose pluckers have had on
   stringing often leading to high tensions of overwound strings in the
   bass to avoid rattles. Much of this is caused by the large amplitude of
   oscillation at the middle of a string when set in motion nearer the mid
   point than close to the bridge. So playing close to the bridge not only
   follows the practice of the post-sixteenth century 'Old Ones'  but also
   leads to real advantages. This manner of playing is, of course, also
   linked to the still widespread 'thumb under' school promoted from the
   1970s onwards as the 'proper true' way to pluck the lute!
   I also very much agree with your earlier observation that equal feel
   does not mean equal tension - the early writers would surely not have
   been reporting the outcome of scientific instrument measurements but of
   how it felt under the fingers when plucking. In short the stiffness of
   thicker strings of the same material can make them harder to set in
   motion and thus mislead into thinking more force is being applied.
   Incidentally, there can sometimes be confusion between elasticity and
   stiffness: elasticity is basically the ability of a material to resume
   its normal shape after being deformed (in this case stretched - a good
   thing in this context); whereas stiffness is the force required to
   deform (stretch ie displace) the string by an amount. Thus stiffness is
   related to what happens before a string is released whereas elasticity
   is what happens after. In this context elasticity is probably a good
   thing; stiffness not so.
   However my real purpose in writing is to ask precisely what you mean by
   a 'darker' sound. Is it one with a more predominant fundemental note or
   what?
   regards and, please, keep up the good work
   Martyn
     __________________________________________________________________

   From: Mimmo Peruffo <[email-masked]>
   To: Matthew Daillie <[email-masked]>; Martin Shepherd
   <[email-masked]>
   Cc: [email-masked]
   Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2017, 10:01
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
   Mimmo again;
   the Gualtier tbel hs a diffrent interpretation that those relate to
   gauges
   or gut ribbons.
   I will do a article in matter in the next future.
   I am going to believe that maybe is better to switch to another
   elastomer
   whose elasticity is less. I have have already done some tests and I
   must
   admit that I was in figth with me which put in the market. Tony Bailes
   topld
   me: pout the stiffer one because the osund is darker and they are  far
   less
   stretchly. Equal feel versus equal tension: well said dear Martin.
   there are
   other few things to consider; however the lute setup must be  done
   scaled.
   Ciao
   mimmo
   -----Messaggio originale-----
   From: Martin Shepherd
   Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:26 AM
   To: Mimmo ; Matthew Daillie
   Cc: [1][email-masked]
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
   Dear All,
   If we're really interested in how lutes might have been strung
   historically, I think it's important to take the historical evidence
   (very little of it, I know) as a starting point, rather than the habits
   of modern players using modern strings.
   We have a lot of iconographic evidence (plus the evidence from
   measuring
   bridge holes) that bass strings were rather thin - so the conclusion
   across all the strings, so we have not experimented much with a
   tapering
   be tapered to some degree, otherwise bass strings (and tension) would
   be
   tension than thicker ones.  I have done this as a matter of instinct
   for
   table in the Gaultier book (discovered by Andreas Schlegel), and my
   more
   some apparent contradictions in the historical evidence.  Many
   paintings
   stretching "an inch or two" in the winding up - suggesting a string
   much
   (stretchiness) and "sideways flexibility" or "floppy flexibility"
   (which
   it seems the old strings may have had).  Think of the difference
   between
   the irregular pattern of vibration will make it rattle against the
   frets
   On 02/02/2017 07:20, Mimmo wrote:
   >> Il giorno 01 feb 2017, alle ore 23:34, Matthew Daillie
   >> <[2][email-masked]> ha scritto:
   >>
   >> brightest are the KÃ¼rschner followed by the Savarez, then the
   Aquila Ds
   >> and lastly the Aquila DEs, which are pretty dull (and are no longer
   being
   >> (there has only been one batch so far and many diameters are
   unavailable)
   >>> hiatus.  It's been long enough that I have forgotten some of the
   points
   >>> of conventional wisdom concerning stringing.  I'm playing an 11c
   lute
   >>> trebles.  I'm not so much bothered by the sustain of the nylon
   strings,
   >> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
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References

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From: Anthony Hind <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 11:46:11 +0000 (UTC)

Presumably FB was talking of dark diapasons and not bass courses
   diapasons with their octaves? Modern wire wounds are very bright and
   there is little need for strong octaves. Personally when using Venice
   gut loaded that were quite flexible and dark, I moved to higher tension
   Venice octaves to compensate the slightly flappy quality of loaded
   basses (which at first had tended to rattle slightly). This works very
   well, the bass initially gives way to the thumb pressure, but the
   higher tension octave gives a delayed resistance (all tendency to
   rattle disappeared). I preferred this to going to a thicker higher
   tension loaded bass which could sometimes sound slightly over damped. I
   have kept these octaves with the new synthetic basses, and the few
   lutenists who have tried my lute found it sounded well with this
   configuration (how well this corresponds to evidence of historic
   stringing, I am not sure. Although where indicated that octaves should
   be played without basses, my octaves have a good tuneful presence,
   which I doubt would be the case with lower tension ones; but along with
   FB some might argue 'basses should be basses', whereas mine have a
   slightly singing Meanes presence to them).

   In the past, I have used first generation stiff HT loaded gut and
   second generation flexible Venice loaded gut and now the flexible
   synthetic ones, and after a time and some tweaking, managed with each
   type. I think the playing style alters somewhat to adapt to stringing
   and tensions, but I can imagine that those used to very stiff
   wirewounds might take some time to adapt. On the other hand, if a
   flexible bass is false, no increased tension of the octave will prevent
   it from rattling.
   Regards
   Anthony

   Le jeudi, fÃ©vrier 2, 2017, 10:53 AM, Mimmo Peruffo
   <[email-masked]> a Ã©crit :

   The Well, Tony Bailes mailed me that:
   Writing in 1629 Francis Bacon stresses that low strings should produce
   a
    bass sound: "for we see, that in one of the lower strings of a lute,
   there
   When soundeth not the sound of the treble, nor any mixt sound , but
   onely the
   sound of the base."
   Mimmo
   ps: I can made them less stretchly using a different elastomer. the
   problem
   is that they became a bit darker in the sound. Any suggestion? I am
   ready to
   start with the big batch. I am a bit worry about those that like that
   they
   are in some way still close to the wound strings
   -----Messaggio originale-----
   From: Martin Shepherd
   Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:26 AM
   To: Mimmo ; Matthew Daillie
   Cc: [1][email-masked]
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
   Dear All,
   If we're really interested in how lutes might have been strung
   historically, I think it's important to take the historical evidence
   (very little of it, I know) as a starting point, rather than the habits
   of modern players using modern strings.
   We have a lot of iconographic evidence (plus the evidence from
   measuring
   bridge holes) that bass strings were rather thin - so the conclusion
   Aquila Ds
   being
   unavailable)
   points
   lute
   strings,
   ---

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From: "Mimmo Peruffo" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 13:03:33 +0100

Well, seeing this post I have the idea to switch to these stiffer ones. at 
the end of the day they are closer to those loaded strings made of gut.
I will do some samples in advance.
Mimmo

ps: long diapason:  I have not in aim to do them for very long diapasons 
such as chitarrrone. The diapasons are so long for plain gut, not for denser 
strings.  I have in aim to cover the Archlutes Sellas models, whose 
string-dipasons has the octaves paired. Octaves are always a good  indicator 
that it is time to have a denser material than gut or similars

-----Messaggio originale----- 
From: Jarosław Lipski
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:08 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

No problem at all, they could be darker (even better!). Anyway it’s quite a 
good idea IMHO. If some like overwounds they can always use 
just…ocerwounds;) I really can’t see any point in imitating overwounds.
Please let us know if you make a new stiffer batch.

JL

> problem is that they became a bit darker in the sound. Any suggestion? I 
> am ready to start with the big batch. I am a bit worry about those that 
> like that they are in some way still close to the wound strings
>
>
>> tension. In practice they became thinner that any wound strings. In 
>> short, if the equivalent gut by calculation is 145 I raccomand  to 
>> install a 150 instead. So under tension the final gauge will be the 
>> suitable one.
>>> <[email-masked]> ha scritto:
>>>
>>>> basses to get a sustain which is not downright thunky or chunky, but 
>>>> has shorter sustain than the silver-wounds?
>>>>
>>>> David R
>>>>
>>>
>>>

---

From: Jarosław Lipski <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 13:31:24 +0100

Excellent! I am looking forward to it. Please, let us know when they are ready.
Good luck :)

Jaroslaw

> On 02 Feb 2017, at 13:03, Mimmo Peruffo <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> Well, seeing this post I have the idea to switch to these stiffer ones. at the end of the day they are closer to those loaded strings made of gut.
> ps: long diapason:  I have not in aim to do them for very long diapasons such as chitarrrone. The diapasons are so long for plain gut, not for denser strings.  I have in aim to cover the Archlutes Sellas models, whose string-dipasons has the octaves paired. Octaves are always a good  indicator that it is time to have a denser material than gut or similars
> 
> -----Messaggio originale----- From: Jarosław Lipski

---

From: Mimmo <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 13:39:23 +0100

Thanks Martyn, 
I mean more predominant fundamental and less sustain, more percussive .
Bacon is interesting here,
By the way, I am leaving Italy to,London royal,college .,there is a meeting about mandolin this Saturday 
Any chance to,meet,you?
Mimmo 

> Il giorno 02 feb 2017, alle ore 11:53, Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]> ha scritto:
> 
>   Dear Mimmo,
>   short,

---

From: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 13:05:37 +0000 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification Mimmo.
   Unfortunately I'm playing in a concert on Saturday.  The mandolin
   meeting looks very interesting and I'd have liked to have attended that
   too!
   regards
   Martyn
     __________________________________________________________________

   From: Mimmo <[email-masked]>
   To: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
   Cc: Matthew Daillie <[email-masked]>; Martin Shepherd
   <[email-masked]>; "[email-masked]"
   <[email-masked]>
   Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2017, 12:39
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
   Thanks Martyn,
   I mean more predominant fundamental and less sustain, more percussive .
   Bacon is interesting here,
   By the way, I am leaving Italy to,London royal,college .,there is a
   meeting about mandolin this Saturday
   Any chance to,meet,you?
   Mimmo
   > Il giorno 02 feb 2017, alle ore 11:53, Martyn Hodgson
   <[1][email-masked]> ha scritto:
   >  From: Mimmo Peruffo <[2][email-masked]>
   >  To: Matthew Daillie <[3][email-masked]>; Martin Shepherd
   >  <[4][email-masked]>
   >  Cc: [5][email-masked]
   >  Cc: [1][6][email-masked]
   >> if the equivalent gut by calculation is 145 I raccomand  to install
   a
   >  150
   >> problem is that we lost a bit of brightness. Is it a good idea ? I
   do
   >  not
   >>> <[2][7][email-masked]> ha scritto:
   >>>
   >>> brightest are the KÃ ¼rschner followed by the Savarez, then the
   >  Aquila Ds
   >>> [3][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>
   >  ---
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   >
   >  --
   >
   > References
   >
   >  1. mailto:[10][email-masked]
   >  2. mailto:[11][email-masked]
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   >

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   4. mailto:[email-masked]
   5. mailto:[email-masked]
   6. mailto:[email-masked]
   7. mailto:[email-masked]
   8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   9. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
  10. mailto:[email-masked]
  11. mailto:[email-masked]
  12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  13. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

---

From: Wikla Arto <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 22:46:56 +0200

Dear Mimmo,

if you decide to make the loaded nylgut strings (CD) less elastic, I 
hope (and wish and urge ;-) ) that you keep also the original elastic 
version in your repertoire! They work exceptionally well on my Harz 
arclute, great stuff.

And big thanks for your invaluable work!

Arto

On 02/02/17 14:03, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:
> Well, seeing this post I have the idea to switch to these stiffer ones.
> at the end of the day they are closer to those loaded strings made of gut.

---

From: "Mimmo Peruffo" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 08:29:35 +0100

Thank you for the suggestion Arto.
   Unfortunately i cannot do it
   I already image how confuse the thing will be with the customers.
   This mean the eford to mannage twice products and honestly I do not
   like to add cofusion in the factory and with customers already stressed
   by me!

   I should do a choice and in fast time: is it better a more elastic
   string like these are (whith problems related to the fact that maybe
   stretch tooo much and that the sound is too bright) or it is better to
   switch to a less elastic plastic support with the advantage that it
   stretch less, the sound is darker and with less sustain?
   Hard to do the choice: both solutions are ok; i already tried the
   second option that is similar to the loaded gut strings
   Even Anthony Bailes suggested me the second option.

   Strings or not to strings? this is the question

   ah ah
   (my poor english at work)
   Ciao
   Mimmo

   ps
   which are your suggestion guys?

   -----Messaggio originale-----
   From: Arto Wikla
   Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:46 PM
   To: Mimmo Peruffo ; [email-masked]
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

   Dear Mimmo,

   Arto

   --

---

From: Rob MacKillop <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 07:50:16 +0000

Second option for me. 

Rob MacKillop

> On 3 Feb 2017, at 07:29, Mimmo Peruffo <[email-masked]> wrote:
>

---

From: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 08:01:30 +0000 (UTC)

Once again Mimmo, many thanks for all your efforts and for taking the
   trouble to listen to us out here!
   I much liked your old loaded gut and I still have some on various lutes
   (including the 6th course of a large theorbo where it smooths the
   transition to the long basses). Close to these earlier loaded strings
   would be my choice but they should certainly not be less dull or less
   sustain than these. If in doubt perhaps a mixing of the two ingredients
   if this is possible? Sorry to add to your choices.
   regards
   Martyn
     __________________________________________________________________

   To: Arto Wikla <[email-masked]>; [email-masked]
   Sent: Friday, 3 February 2017, 7:29
     like to add cofusion in the factory and with customers already
   stressed
     stretch tooo much and that the sound is too bright) or it is better
   to
     -----Messaggio originale-----
     From: Arto Wikla
     Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:46 PM
     To: Mimmo Peruffo ; [1][email-masked]
     Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
     Dear Mimmo,
     if you decide to make the loaded nylgut strings (CD) less elastic, I
     hope (and wish and urge ;-) ) that you keep also the original elastic
     version in your repertoire! They work exceptionally well on my Harz
     arclute, great stuff.
     And big thanks for your invaluable work!
     Arto
     On 02/02/17 14:03, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:
     > at the end of the day they are closer to those loaded strings made
   of
     gut.
     To get on or off this list see list information at
     [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
     --

   --

References

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---

From: Matthew Daillie <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 09:06:49 +0100

Dear Mimmo,
In my opinion there are two factors which need to be given priority even before judging the sound of a string. Firstly it has to be true (with no problems of intonation going up the fingerboard for stopped strings) and secondly it has to be playable: on a well-made and well set up lute, it must not catch on the nut, buzz, hit a neighbouring string, hit against the fingerboard, or cause any other extraneous noises. If a string has the potential to sound wonderful but does not meet these two criteria, then it is of no use whatsoever.
Once that is established, obviously players want a string with a full-bodied and stable tone, enough sustain to make voice-leading a pleasure and the instrument to sing to the best of its ability and sufficient power to provide convincing projection and resonance.
Personally I am looking for a warm and sweet tone with precise fundamentals and enough overtones to make the timbre rich and variable.
Oh dear, that does sound like a holy grail doesn't it?
Fingers crossed!
Best
Matthew

> On Feb 3, 2017, at 8:29, Mimmo Peruffo <[email-masked]> wrote:
>

---

From: Martin Shepherd <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 09:35:03 +0100

Tout à fait d'accord, Matthew.

I would add that "trueness" is not just a question of intonation when 
notes are fretted.  A false string never sounds in tune even as an open 
string, and the pattern of vibration makes it buzz against the frets.  
If your string heights are high enough that this isn't a problem, 
they're too high.

I don't know whether the samples I had from Mimmo some time ago are the 
same as the current production, but I thought they were too elastic.  He 
did say he was going to make a less elastic version for the thinner 
strings, but I don't know whether he's implemented this idea or not (can 
you tell us, Mimmo?).  I'm slightly puzzled by the suggestion that the 
less elastic version would have a duller or darker sound, I would almost 
expect the opposite - as a comparison, the KF strings are very stiff but 
sound bright.

It would be such a shame if after all his efforts we end up with a 
string which is not as good as the old loaded gut.   Actually the new 
string needs to be better than that in terms of trueness.

Best wishes to all,

Martin

---

---

From: "Mimmo Peruffo" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 10:09:58 +0100

Thank you very much about all these helpfull suggestions, guys.

actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half loaded using also a 
stiffer elastomer.  This combination is perfect fo the tonl trasiction 
betweenj pure gut/nylon/Nylgut to a wound strings, KF or CDs etc etc.
I call this range of gauges simply as Meanes. they are still CD types 
however.
In practice they  are around the 5th course of renaissance & d minor Lutes.
I have intentionally exluded the  4th courses because make not sense at all 
to use a denser strings on it. The  80 CD is just done for those that are 
curious.

well, I done the very first prototypes (than cannot be perfect) and sent out 
to some friends to hear their opinions: of course, some of them were uneven. 
Despite that I had very good reports.
Some installed them also like octaves (!): I never realized that additional 
option. However,  I do not raccomend. Octaves normally can works at higher 
working index than a 5 th course;  so they can breack.

said that, I agree with you Matthew. thanks

Martin, a stiffer string has an higher elasticity modulus so the 
performances are  less good than those of an equivalent string with more 
elasticity. You probably reffers to the KF strings. However there are others 
parameters at work here, for example the inner damping effect is one of 
them, and it  is not related to the elasticity modulus. This explain for 
example why a special kind of nylon, whose density is far less than 
fluorocarbon sound like this one. It was a huge surprise to me!

I am thinking that you guys prefer  the second option. To me is even better, 
it help to solve some problem becausew they sometime stick on the nut slots/ 
grooves.

False strings? yes, with prototypes  can happen. when one start with  the 
ufficial production an extruder plant work exatly in the same even way. The 
first strings are the waste and then the rest are done exactly in the same 
way.
well, I am leaving italy to London so I have not time to re start; I will do 
some samples both for meanes and basses just to see if they actually works 
in the proper way
Be patient again;  i cannot be too fast  here.
Mimmo

-----Messaggio originale----- 
From: Martin Shepherd
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 9:35 AM
To: Matthew Daillie ; Mimmo Peruffo
Cc: Arto Wikla ; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

Best wishes to all,

Martin

On 03/02/2017 09:06, Matthew Daillie wrote:
> Dear Mimmo,
> In my opinion there are two factors which need to be given priority even 
> before judging the sound of a string. Firstly it has to be true (with no 
> problems of intonation going up the fingerboard for stopped strings) and 
> secondly it has to be playable: on a well-made and well set up lute, it 
> must not catch on the nut, buzz, hit a neighbouring string, hit against 
> the fingerboard, or cause any other extraneous noises. If a string has the 
> potential to sound wonderful but does not meet these two criteria, then it 
> is of no use whatsoever.
> Once that is established, obviously players want a string with a 
> full-bodied and stable tone, enough sustain to make voice-leading a 
> pleasure and the instrument to sing to the best of its ability and 
> sufficient power to provide convincing projection and resonance.
> Personally I am looking for a warm and sweet tone with precise 
> fundamentals and enough overtones to make the timbre rich and variable.

---

---

From: Martin Shepherd <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 10:22:29 +0100

Thanks, Mimmo.

I agree absolutely that there is no need to make versions of these 
strings thinner than .80mm.

The issue of damping is perhaps the one which worries me most.  In the 
case of roped strings, they sound duller than a plain gut string of the 
same size, presumably because of internal friction between the strands 
of the rope.  In the case of rubber strings (sorry!) what worries me is 
that some damping/absorption of energy is happening as the string 
stretches and contracts with each vibration.  The KF fluorocarbon 
strings, being solid and stiff, have neither of these damping effects.  
I can imagine that a string which was "floppy" but not especially 
elastic would work well.

I hope that a lower rubber content would allow the strings to slide 
better over the nut, which would also be a welcome characteristic.

Best to all,

Martin

On 03/02/2017 10:09, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:
> actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half loaded using 
> also a stiffer elastomer.  This combination is perfect fo the tonl 
> trasiction betweenj pure gut/nylon/Nylgut to a wound strings, KF or 
> CDs etc etc.
> I have intentionally exluded the  4th courses because make not sense 
> at all to use a denser strings on it. The  80 CD is just done for 
> those that are curious.
>
> well, I done the very first prototypes (than cannot be perfect) and 
> sent out to some friends to hear their opinions: of course, some of 
> them were uneven. Despite that I had very good reports.
> Some installed them also like octaves (!): I never realized that 
> additional option. However,  I do not raccomend. Octaves normally can 
> works at higher working index than a 5 th course;  so they can breack.
>
> performances are  less good than those of an equivalent string with 
> more elasticity. You probably reffers to the KF strings. However there 
> are others parameters at work here, for example the inner damping 
> effect is one of them, and it  is not related to the elasticity 
> modulus. This explain for example why a special kind of nylon, whose 
> density is far less than fluorocarbon sound like this one. It was a 
> huge surprise to me!
>
> I am thinking that you guys prefer  the second option. To me is even 
> better, it help to solve some problem becausew they sometime stick on 
> the nut slots/ grooves.
>
> False strings? yes, with prototypes  can happen. when one start with  
> the ufficial production an extruder plant work exatly in the same even 
> way. The first strings are the waste and then the rest are done 
> exactly in the same way.
> well, I am leaving italy to London so I have not time to re start; I 
> will do some samples both for meanes and basses just to see if they 
> actually works in the proper way
>> In my opinion there are two factors which need to be given priority 
>> even before judging the sound of a string. Firstly it has to be true 
>> (with no problems of intonation going up the fingerboard for stopped 
>> strings) and secondly it has to be playable: on a well-made and well 
>> set up lute, it must not catch on the nut, buzz, hit a neighbouring 
>> string, hit against the fingerboard, or cause any other extraneous 
>> noises. If a string has the potential to sound wonderful but does not 
>> meet these two criteria, then it is of no use whatsoever.

---

---

From: "Mimmo Peruffo" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 10:40:51 +0100

Ok martin
to say all: I have already tried  such stiffer 'rubbers' (ah ah): increasing 
the stiffness at the same metal powder quantity the sound became step by 
step darker with less sustain. Using the most elastic 'rubber' the sound 
open a lot but the string became too stretchly.
You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut? I have the 
contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped string was done. Mine 
is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted like as rope and then 
polished. In practice our Venices.
I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation: some of you 
guys are by chance at the mandolino meeting in London so you can show one to 
me? This make things faster

Heck, guys, what to do? first or second option?
At present the second option is the winner!
ciao to all
Mimmo

-----Messaggio originale----- 
From: Martin Shepherd
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 10:22 AM
To: Mimmo Peruffo ; Matthew Daillie
Cc: Arto Wikla ; [email-masked]
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

Thanks, Mimmo.

Best to all,

Martin

On 03/02/2017 10:09, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:
> actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half loaded using also 
> a stiffer elastomer.  This combination is perfect fo the tonl trasiction 
> I have intentionally exluded the  4th courses because make not sense at 
> all to use a denser strings on it. The  80 CD is just done for those that 
> are curious.
>
> well, I done the very first prototypes (than cannot be perfect) and sent 
> out to some friends to hear their opinions: of course, some of them were 
> uneven. Despite that I had very good reports.
> elasticity. You probably reffers to the KF strings. However there are 
> others parameters at work here, for example the inner damping effect is 
> one of them, and it  is not related to the elasticity modulus. This 
> explain for example why a special kind of nylon, whose density is far less 
> than fluorocarbon sound like this one. It was a huge surprise to me!
>
> better, it help to solve some problem becausew they sometime stick on the 
> nut slots/ grooves.
>
> ufficial production an extruder plant work exatly in the same even way. 
> The first strings are the waste and then the rest are done exactly in the 
> same way.
> well, I am leaving italy to London so I have not time to re start; I will 
> do some samples both for meanes and basses just to see if they actually 
> works in the proper way
>> the fingerboard, or cause any other extraneous noises. If a string has 
>> the potential to sound wonderful but does not meet these two criteria, 
>> then it is of no use whatsoever.

---

---

From: Anthony Hind <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 10:33:31 +0000 (UTC)

Personally I love the singing sustain of the ones I have on my lute
   now, but for many lutenists the elasticity is difficult to deal with,
   both in terms of how it calls for a change in playing technique, and
   also how they tend to stick on the nut. However, I also loved my loaded
   Venice gut, so the second option is also alright with me. Trueness of
   string is of course necessary, but possibly difficult to predict. I
   suppose it may be difficult to obtain even or homogenous mixtures of
   polymer and copper, sometimes just necessary to select the best ones?
   But I suppose the traditional testing between stretched hands (or
   similar) won't work for very elastic strings? I may have been very
   lucky as all mine were very true.

   Best wishes

   Anthony
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   Le vendredi, fÃ©vrier 3, 2017, 8:50 AM, Rob MacKillop
   <[email-masked]> a Ã©crit :

   Second option for me.
   Rob MacKillop
   > On 3 Feb 2017, at 07:29, Mimmo Peruffo <[2][email-masked]>
   stressed
   to
   >  To: Mimmo Peruffo ; [3][email-masked]
   of
   >  [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   >  --
   >

   --

References

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   2. javascript:return
   3. javascript:return
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: Jarosław Lipski <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 11:39:56 +0100

Mimmo,

> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut? I have the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped string was done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted like as rope and then polished. In practice our Venices.

Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They are brighter than plain gut

> I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation:

I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs have shorter sustain, are more percussive and …slightly duller sound IMO. KFs work well till 11th course on BQL. I don’t like them on diapasons. CDs have stronger fundamental, longer sustain (much longer than guts) and work very well on diapasons, however their elasticity make them work only on instruments with higher than normal action and wide string spacing. Also tuning is not ideal.

> At present the second option is the winner!

Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If you aim at finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings would be better. I am used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a little bit stiffer string. If someone played only overwounds he/she would probably prefer longer sustain. So the answer to your question will depend on whom you’ll ask.
All in all there is no one answer to this question, and probably you would have to take into consideration your business strategy.
Best
Ciao

Jaroslaw

>> actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half loaded using also a stiffer elastomer.  This combination is perfect fo the tonl trasiction betweenj pure gut/nylon/Nylgut to a wound strings, KF or CDs etc etc.
>> I call this range of gauges simply as Meanes. they are still CD types however.
>> I have intentionally exluded the  4th courses because make not sense at all to use a denser strings on it. The  80 CD is just done for those that are curious.
>> 
>> well, I done the very first prototypes (than cannot be perfect) and sent out to some friends to hear their opinions: of course, some of them were uneven. Despite that I had very good reports.
>> Some installed them also like octaves (!): I never realized that additional option. However,  I do not raccomend. Octaves normally can works at higher working index than a 5 th course;  so they can breack.
>> 
>> Martin, a stiffer string has an higher elasticity modulus so the performances are  less good than those of an equivalent string with more elasticity. You probably reffers to the KF strings. However there are others parameters at work here, for example the inner damping effect is one of them, and it  is not related to the elasticity modulus. This explain for example why a special kind of nylon, whose density is far less than fluorocarbon sound like this one. It was a huge surprise to me!
>> 
>> I am thinking that you guys prefer  the second option. To me is even better, it help to solve some problem becausew they sometime stick on the nut slots/ grooves.
>> 
>> False strings? yes, with prototypes  can happen. when one start with  the ufficial production an extruder plant work exatly in the same even way. The first strings are the waste and then the rest are done exactly in the same way.
>> well, I am leaving italy to London so I have not time to re start; I will do some samples both for meanes and basses just to see if they actually works in the proper way

---

From: "Mimmo Peruffo" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 11:54:42 +0100

Thanks Jaroslaw,
good report indeed.
Actually I have not in mind the business side, it is  just  my love for such 
instrument,  passion, i mean.

In short, I would like to do something that is 'emotional'.  Hared toi 
explain, it is something related to me and my feel when I hear a Lute. The 
Bacon writting is almost  clear to me and i feel in this way.

Said that, it is very interesting your comparation of the CD's with the KF 
ones and with the Venices
I am thinking that these CD's are  to much performant  than the necessity. 
So I am going to prefere the second option: at the end of the day it solve 
also a lot of meccanical problems

Mille grazie
Mimmo

(thanks Anthony)

-----Messaggio originale----- 
From: Jarosław Lipski
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 11:39 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

Mimmo,

> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut? I have 
> the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped string was 
> done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted like as 
> rope and then polished. In practice our Venices.

Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They are brighter 
than plain gut

> I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation:

I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs have 
shorter sustain, are more percussive and …slightly duller sound IMO. KFs 
work well till 11th course on BQL. I don’t like them on diapasons. CDs have 
stronger fundamental, longer sustain (much longer than guts) and work very 
well on diapasons, however their elasticity make them work only on 
instruments with higher than normal action and wide string spacing. Also 
tuning is not ideal.

> At present the second option is the winner!

Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If you aim at 
finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings would be better. I 
am used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a little bit stiffer 
string. If someone played only overwounds he/she would probably prefer 
longer sustain. So the answer to your question will depend on whom you’ll 
ask.
All in all there is no one answer to this question, and probably you would 
have to take into consideration your business strategy.
Best
Ciao

Jaroslaw

>> explain for example why a special kind of nylon, whose density is far 
>> less than fluorocarbon sound like this one. It was a huge surprise to me!
>>

---

From: Martin Shepherd <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 14:00:42 +0100

Just to explain:

When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was talking 
only about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.

For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use will 
not work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and stiff 
to work.  On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing larger 
than 1.50mm (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th course.

Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them where 
they go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of the 
bridge.  If you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you will 
probably get problems with the strings buzzing against the top of the 
bridge.

Martin

---

---

From: Anthony Hind <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 14:45:23 +0000 (UTC)

By thinning them at the bridge, Martin, I suppose this allows the
   diapason to be "seen" (as it were) at the bridge as a thinish loaded
   string. The effective resonating diameter being that passing through
   the hole and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving similarly to
   loading, but as though the loading were more of the same material
   (albeit with a brake on the harmonicity where the whole string psses
   over the nut)? Does the whittling down weaken the string? Could you
   also thin it at the nut?

   Best wishes

   Anthony

   Le vendredi, fÃ©vrier 3, 2017, 2:00 PM, Martin Shepherd
   <[email-masked]> a Ã©crit :

   Just to explain:
   For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use
   will
   On 03/02/2017 11:39, JarosÅaw Lipski wrote:
   > Mimmo,
   >
   >> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut? I
   have the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped string
   was done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted
   like as rope and then polished. In practice our Venices.
   > I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs have
   shorter sustain, are more percussive and â¦slightly duller sound IMO.
   KFs work well till 11th course on BQL. I don't like them on diapasons.
   CDs have stronger fundamental, longer sustain (much longer than guts)
   and work very well on diapasons, however their elasticity make them
   work only on instruments with higher than normal action and wide string
   spacing. Also tuning is not ideal.
   > Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If you
   aim at finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings would
   be better. I am used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a little
   bit stiffer string. If someone played only overwounds he/she would
   probably prefer longer sustain. So the answer to your question will
   depend on whom you'll ask.
   > All in all there is no one answer to this question, and probably you
   would have to take into consideration your business strategy.
   >> Cc: Arto Wikla ; [2][email-masked]
   >>> actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half loaded
   using also a stiffer elastomer.  This combination is perfect fo the
   tonl trasiction betweenj pure gut/nylon/Nylgut to a wound strings, KF
   or CDs etc etc.
   >>> I have intentionally exluded the  4th courses because make not
   sense at all to use a denser strings on it. The  80 CD is just done for
   those that are curious.
   >>>
   >>> I am thinking that you guys prefer  the second option. To me is
   even better, it help to solve some problem becausew they sometime stick
   on the nut slots/ grooves.
   >>>
   >>> False strings? yes, with prototypes  can happen. when one start
   with  the ufficial production an extruder plant work exatly in the same
   even way. The first strings are the waste and then the rest are done
   exactly in the same way.
   >>> well, I am leaving italy to London so I have not time to re start;
   I will do some samples both for meanes and basses just to see if they
   actually works in the proper way
   >>> Cc: Arto Wikla ; [3][email-masked]
   >>> Tout Ã  fait d'accord, Matthew.
   >>>
   >>>> In my opinion there are two factors which need to be given
   priority even before judging the sound of a string. Firstly it has to
   be true (with no problems of intonation going up the fingerboard for
   stopped strings) and secondly it has to be playable: on a well-made and
   well set up lute, it must not catch on the nut, buzz, hit a
   neighbouring string, hit against the fingerboard, or cause any other
   extraneous noises. If a string has the potential to sound wonderful but
   does not meet these two criteria, then it is of no use whatsoever.
   >>>>> On Feb 3, 2017, at 8:29, Mimmo Peruffo
   stressed
   >>>>>    To: Mimmo Peruffo ; [5][email-masked]
   >>>>>> Well, seeing this post I have the idea to switch to these
   stiffer
   >>>>>    ones.
   >>>>>> at the end of the day they are closer to those loaded strings
   made of
   >>>>>    [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>>>>
   >>>>>    --
   >>>
   >>> ---
   >>> [7]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
   >>
   >>
   >> ---
   >> [8]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
   >>
   >>
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From: Martin Shepherd <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 16:35:38 +0100

Thinning the string probably does weaken it, but since the strings in
   question are way below their breaking strain that would never be a
   problem.  I have not tried thinning at the nut, but I suspect if it
   could be done it might improve the sound still further.  There is
   something to be said for thinning them where they go through the hole
   in the peg, allowing a smaller hole to be used and also making it
   easier to persuade the string to bend around the peg.
   Martin
   On 03/02/2017 15:45, Anthony Hind wrote:

     By thinning them at the bridge, Martin, I suppose this allows the
     diapason to be "seen" (as it were) at the bridge as a thinish loaded
     string. The effective resonating diameter being that passing through
     the hole and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving similarly
     to loading, but as though the loading were more of the same material
     (albeit with a brake on the harmonicity where the whole string psses
     over the nut)? Does the whittling down weaken the string? Could you
     also thin it at the nut?

   Best wishes

   Anthony

     Le vendredi, février 3, 2017, 2:00 PM, Martin Shepherd
     [2]<[email-masked]> a écrit :

   Just to explain:
   > I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs have
   shorter sustain, are more percussive and …slightly duller sound IMO.
   >>> Cc: Arto Wikla ; [4][email-masked]
   stressed
   >>>>>    To: Mimmo Peruffo ; [6][email-masked]
   stiffer
   made of
   >>>>>    [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>>>>
   >>>>>    --
   >>>
   >>> ---
   ---
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From: Jarosław Lipski <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 16:45:51 +0100

Martin,

> When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was talking only about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.

I tried both thicker and thinner Aquilla Venice ropes and even on 4th course they sound brighter than plain gut IMHO. But, this discussion only shows how relative our sound perception is.
> 
> For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use will not work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and stiff to work.  On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing larger than 1.50mm (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th course.
> 

I am using 1.60 on 11th course and it works fine for me. But again it’s a matter of taste. 

> Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them where they go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of the bridge.  If you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you will probably get problems with the strings buzzing against the top of the bridge.
> 

Yes, mine have split ends at the bridge.

Best

Jaroslaw

---

From: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 15:52:00 +0000 (UTC)

Dear Anthony,
   I may well have misunderstood the point you make
   'and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving similarly  to
   loading, but as though the loading were more of the same material'
   - surely the physical characteristics of a string largely determine the
   sound - else why bother?
   Martin's practice of thinning at the bridge is probably  to allow the
   string there to vibrate around a clean take off point thus minimising
   frequency absorption (ie damping) and, as Martin said, to avoid  the
   thickish string buzzing against the bridge.  This is not, of course, to
   say that the rest of the physical characteristics of the string are
   immaterial! The characteristics of the string and hence sound are
   determined by the totality of the vibrating length and thus the
   material, its dimensions its elasticity, stiffness, etc. Otherwise  one
   might as well make a string out of anything and it would sound the same
   if the bridge thinning were identical ......
   regards
   Martyn
     __________________________________________________________________

   From: Martin Shepherd <[email-masked]>
   To: Anthony Hind <[email-masked]>; JarosÅaw Lipski
   <[email-masked]>; "[email-masked]"
   <[email-masked]>
   Sent: Friday, 3 February 2017, 15:35
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing
     Thinning the string probably does weaken it, but since the strings in
     question are way below their breaking strain that would never be a
     problem.  I have not tried thinning at the nut, but I suspect if it
     could be done it might improve the sound still further.  There is
     something to be said for thinning them where they go through the hole
     in the peg, allowing a smaller hole to be used and also making it
     easier to persuade the string to bend around the peg.
     Martin
     On 03/02/2017 15:45, Anthony Hind wrote:
       By thinning them at the bridge, Martin, I suppose this allows the
       diapason to be "seen" (as it were) at the bridge as a thinish
   loaded
       string. The effective resonating diameter being that passing
   through
       the hole and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving
   similarly
       to loading, but as though the loading were more of the same
   material
       (albeit with a brake on the harmonicity where the whole string
   psses
       over the nut)? Does the whittling down weaken the string? Could you
       also thin it at the nut?
     Best wishes
     Anthony
       [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
       Le vendredi, fÃ©vrier 3, 2017, 2:00 PM, Martin Shepherd
       [2]<[1][email-masked]> a Ã©crit :
     Just to explain:
     When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was
   talking
     only about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.
     For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use
     will
     not work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and
   stiff
     to work.  On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing
   larger
     than 1.50mm (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th course.
     Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them
   where
     they go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of the
     bridge.  If you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you will
     probably get problems with the strings buzzing against the top of the
     bridge.
     Martin
     >> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut?
   I
     have the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped
   string
     was done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted
     like as rope and then polished. In practice our Venices.
     shorter sustain, are more percussive and â¦slightly duller sound IMO.
     KFs work well till 11th course on BQL. I don't like them on
   diapasons.
     CDs have stronger fundamental, longer sustain (much longer than guts)
     and work very well on diapasons, however their elasticity make them
     work only on instruments with higher than normal action and wide
   string
     spacing. Also tuning is not ideal.
     > Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If you
     aim at finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings
   would
     be better. I am used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a
   little
     bit stiffer string. If someone played only overwounds he/she would
     probably prefer longer sustain. So the answer to your question will
     depend on whom you'll ask.
     >> Cc: Arto Wikla ; [3][2][email-masked]
     >> case of roped strings, they sound duller than a plain gut string
   of
     the
     >> of the rope.  In the case of rubber strings (sorry!) what worries
   me
     is
     >>> I have intentionally exluded the  4th courses because make not
     sense at all to use a denser strings on it. The  80 CD is just done
   for
     those that are curious.
     additional option. However,  I do not raccomend. Octaves normally can
     works at higher working index than a 5 th course;  so they can
   breack.
     more elasticity. You probably reffers to the KF strings. However
     >>> I am thinking that you guys prefer  the second option. To me is
     even better, it help to solve some problem becausew they sometime
   stick
     on the nut slots/ grooves.
     >>> False strings? yes, with prototypes  can happen. when one start
     with  the ufficial production an extruder plant work exatly in the
   same
     even way. The first strings are the waste and then the rest are done
     exactly in the same way.
     >>> Cc: Arto Wikla ; [4][3][email-masked]
     >>> notes are fretted.  A false string never sounds in tune even as
   an
     open
     >>> I don't know whether the samples I had from Mimmo some time ago
   are
     the
     >>> strings, but I don't know whether he's implemented this idea or
   not
     (can
     >>> you tell us, Mimmo?).  I'm slightly puzzled by the suggestion
   that
     the
     priority even before judging the sound of a string. Firstly it has to
     be true (with no problems of intonation going up the fingerboard for
     stopped strings) and secondly it has to be playable: on a well-made
   and
     well set up lute, it must not catch on the nut, buzz, hit a
     neighbouring string, hit against the fingerboard, or cause any other
     extraneous noises. If a string has the potential to sound wonderful
   but
     does not meet these two criteria, then it is of no use whatsoever.
     >>>> Personally I am looking for a warm and sweet tone with precise
     fundamentals and enough overtones to make the timbre rich and
   variable.
     stressed
     >>>>>    string like these are (whith problems related to the fact
   that
     maybe
     >>>>>    Hard to do the choice: both solutions are ok; i already
   tried
     the
     >>>>>    To: Mimmo Peruffo ; [6][5][email-masked]
     >>>>>    hope (and wish and urge ;-) ) that you keep also the
   original
     elastic
     >>>>>    version in your repertoire! They work exceptionally well on
   my
     Harz
     stiffer
     made of
     >>>>>    [7][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
     >>>>>
     >>>>>    --
     >>>
     >>> ---
     >>> [8][7]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
     >>
     >>
     >> ---
     >> [9][8]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
     >>
     >>
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---

From: Anthony Hind <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 19:41:35 +0000 (UTC)

Dear Martyn

         I tend to see reducing inharmonicity of a string as lowering its
   impedance to bending while maintaining its weight.
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   Le vendredi, fÃ©vrier 3, 2017, 4:52 PM, Martyn Hodgson
   <[email-masked]> a Ã©crit :

   Dear Anthony,

       [2]<[2][email-masked]> a Ã©crit :
     >> Cc: Arto Wikla ; [3][3][email-masked]
   of
     the
   me
     is
     >>> Cc: Arto Wikla ; [4][4][email-masked]
   an
     open
   are
     the
   not
     (can
   that
     the
     stressed
   that
     maybe
   tried
     the
     >>>>>    To: Mimmo Peruffo ; [6][6][email-masked]
   original
     elastic
   my
     Harz
     stiffer
     made of
     >>>>>    [7][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
     >>>>>
     >>>>>    --
     >>>
     >>> ---
     >>> [8][8]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
     >>
     >>
     >> ---
     >> [9][9]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
     >>
     >>
     >
     >
     ---
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---

From: Anthony Hind <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 20:45:18 +0000 (UTC)

Apologies for allowing the incomplete message to shoot forth

   Dear Martyn
         I tend to see methods for reducing the inharmonicity of a string
   as simply ways of lowering its impedance to bending while maintaining
   its weight: either a) by increasing its elasticity or b) by improving
   its flexibility (bendability) through keeping it as thin as possible
   for the same weight (particularly near the fixed points from which it
   moves). I see loading and thinning at the bridge as similar processes
   of type b; while i agree there are many other factors which also effect
   the way a string resonates.
   Of course these are merely layman's  weak metaphors for which I also
   apologise.
   Best wishes
   Anthony
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   Dear Anthony,

   of
     the
   me
     is
   an
     open
   are
     the
   not
     (can
   that
     the
     stressed
   that
     maybe
   tried
     the
   original
     elastic
   my
     Harz
     stiffer
     made of
     ---

   --

References

---

From: Anthony Hind <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 23:20:59 +0000 (UTC)

Hello Jaroslaw

       I hope things are going well with you.

   When you say of your Venice, "Yes, mine have split ends at the bridge."
   Do you mean you have managed to separate the ends of the twine and pass
   them separately through the bridge hole?

   This is what Charles Besnainou does with his spring twines. This
   results probably in a lower impedance in the same way as Martin's
   whittled down KFs, I would suppose?

   Best wishes

   Anthony

   Le vendredi, fÃ©vrier 3, 2017, 4:45 PM, JarosÅaw Lipski
   <[email-masked]> a Ã©crit :

   Martin,
   > When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was
   talking only about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.
   I tried both thicker and thinner Aquilla Venice ropes and even on 4th
   course they sound brighter than plain gut IMHO. But, this discussion
   only shows how relative our sound perception is.
   > For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use
   will not work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and
   stiff to work.  On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing
   larger than 1.50mm (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th
   course.
   I am using 1.60 on 11th course and it works fine for me. But again it's
   a matter of taste.
   > Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them
   where they go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of
   the bridge.  If you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you will
   probably get problems with the strings buzzing against the top of the
   bridge.
   >> I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs
   have shorter sustain, are more percussive and â¦slightly duller sound
   IMO. KFs work well till 11th course on BQL. I don't like them on
   diapasons. CDs have stronger fundamental, longer sustain (much longer
   than guts) and work very well on diapasons, however their elasticity
   make them work only on instruments with higher than normal action and
   wide string spacing. Also tuning is not ideal.
   >>> of the rope.  In the case of rubber strings (sorry!) what worries
   me is
   >>>>
   >>>> well, I done the very first prototypes (than cannot be perfect)
   and sent out to some friends to hear their opinions: of course, some of
   them were uneven. Despite that I had very good reports.
   >>>> I don't know whether the samples I had from Mimmo some time ago
   are the
   >>>> strings, but I don't know whether he's implemented this idea or
   not (can
   stressed
   stiffer
   made of

   --

References

---

From: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2017 09:05:28 +0000 (UTC)

Thinning of a string will, of course, affect its flexibility where the
   thinning occurs but the state of the remainder of the string (ie the
   vast majority of it) remains unchanged and it is this which principally
   produces the sound and thus the quality. As remarked earlier, thinning
   at the bridge does have a benefit of reducing loss at this point by
   making a more focused take off point rather than one where the string
   can move significantly in the shallower groove produced by a thicker
   string.
   Thus, as we might expect and, indeed, experience the material and
   make-up of the totality of the string is what largely produces the
   sound we hear - hence, for example, why loaded gut produces a more
   satisfactory bass than plain gut.
   regards
   Martyn
     __________________________________________________________________

   From: Anthony Hind <[email-masked]>
   To: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>; Martin Shepherd
   <[email-masked]>; "[email-masked]"
   <[email-masked]>
   Sent: Friday, 3 February 2017, 20:45
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque
   Lute Stringing
     Apologies for allowing the incomplete message to shoot forth
     Dear Martyn
           I tend to see methods for reducing the inharmonicity of a
   string
     as simply ways of lowering its impedance to bending while maintaining
     its weight: either a) by increasing its elasticity or b) by improving
     its flexibility (bendability) through keeping it as thin as possible
     for the same weight (particularly near the fixed points from which it
     moves). I see loading and thinning at the bridge as similar processes
     of type b; while i agree there are many other factors which also
   effect
     the way a string resonates.
     Of course these are merely layman's  weak metaphors for which I also
     apologise.
     Best wishes
     Anthony
     [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
     Le vendredi, fÃ ©vrier 3, 2017, 4:52 PM, Martyn Hodgson
     <[1][email-masked]> a Ã ©crit :
     Dear Anthony,
     I may well have misunderstood the point you make
     'and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving similarly  to
     loading, but as though the loading were more of the same material'
     - surely the physical characteristics of a string largely determine
   the
     sound - else why bother?
     Martin's practice of thinning at the bridge is probably  to allow the
     string there to vibrate around a clean take off point thus minimising
     frequency absorption (ie damping) and, as Martin said, to avoid  the
     thickish string buzzing against the bridge.  This is not, of course,
   to
     say that the rest of the physical characteristics of the string are
     immaterial! The characteristics of the string and hence sound are
     determined by the totality of the vibrating length and thus the
     material, its dimensions its elasticity, stiffness, etc. Otherwise
   one
     might as well make a string out of anything and it would sound the
   same
     if the bridge thinning were identical ......
     regards
     Martyn
       __________________________________________________________________
     From: Martin Shepherd <[2][email-masked]>
     To: Anthony Hind <[3][email-masked]>; JarosÃaw Lipski
     <[4][email-masked]>; "[5][email-masked]"
     <[6][email-masked]>
     Sent: Friday, 3 February 2017, 15:35
     Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing
       Thinning the string probably does weaken it, but since the strings
   in
       question are way below their breaking strain that would never be a
       problem.  I have not tried thinning at the nut, but I suspect if it
       could be done it might improve the sound still further.  There is
       something to be said for thinning them where they go through the
   hole
       in the peg, allowing a smaller hole to be used and also making it
       easier to persuade the string to bend around the peg.
       Martin
       On 03/02/2017 15:45, Anthony Hind wrote:
         By thinning them at the bridge, Martin, I suppose this allows the
         diapason to be "seen" (as it were) at the bridge as a thinish
     loaded
         string. The effective resonating diameter being that passing
     through
         the hole and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving
     similarly
         to loading, but as though the loading were more of the same
     material
         (albeit with a brake on the harmonicity where the whole string
     psses
         over the nut)? Does the whittling down weaken the string? Could
   you
         also thin it at the nut?
       Best wishes
       Anthony
         [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
         Le vendredi, fÃ ©vrier 3, 2017, 2:00 PM, Martin Shepherd
         [2]<[2][7][email-masked]> a Ã ©crit :
       Just to explain:
       When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was
     talking
       only about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.
       For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use
       will
       not work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and
     stiff
       to work.  On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing
     larger
       than 1.50mm (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th course.
       Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them
     where
       they go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of the
       bridge.  If you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you will
       probably get problems with the strings buzzing against the top of
   the
       bridge.
       Martin
       On 03/02/2017 11:39, JarosÃaw Lipski wrote:
       > Mimmo,
       >
       >> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain
   gut?
     I
       have the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped
     string
       was done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins'
   twisted
       like as rope and then polished. In practice our Venices.
       > Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They
   are
       brighter than plain gut
       > I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs
     have
       shorter sustain, are more percussive and Ã¢ ¦slightly duller sound
   IMO.
       KFs work well till 11th course on BQL. I don't like them on
     diapasons.
       CDs have stronger fundamental, longer sustain (much longer than
   guts)
       and work very well on diapasons, however their elasticity make them
       work only on instruments with higher than normal action and wide
     string
       spacing. Also tuning is not ideal.
       >> Cc: Arto Wikla ; [3][3][8][email-masked]
       >> The issue of damping is perhaps the one which worries me most.
   In
       the
     of
       the
     me
       is
       using also a stiffer elastomer.  This combination is perfect fo the
       tonl trasiction betweenj pure gut/nylon/Nylgut to a wound strings,
   KF
       or CDs etc etc.
     and
       >>> Some installed them also like octaves (!): I never realized
   that
       additional option. However,  I do not raccomend. Octaves normally
   can
       works at higher working index than a 5 th course;  so they can
     breack.
       modulus. This explain for example why a special kind of nylon,
   whose
       with  the ufficial production an extruder plant work exatly in the
     same
       even way. The first strings are the waste and then the rest are
   done
       exactly in the same way.
       >>> well, I am leaving italy to London so I have not time to re
     start;
       I will do some samples both for meanes and basses just to see if
   they
       actually works in the proper way
       >>> Cc: Arto Wikla ; [4][4][9][email-masked]
       >>> I would add that "trueness" is not just a question of
   intonation
       when
     an
       open
     are
       the
     not
       (can
     that
       the
       >>> less elastic version would have a duller or darker sound, I
   would
       almost
       >>> It would be such a shame if after all his efforts we end up
   with
     a
       >>> string which is not as good as the old loaded gut.  Actually
   the
       new
       >>>> In my opinion there are two factors which need to be given
       priority even before judging the sound of a string. Firstly it has
   to
       be true (with no problems of intonation going up the fingerboard
   for
       stopped strings) and secondly it has to be playable: on a well-made
     and
       well set up lute, it must not catch on the nut, buzz, hit a
       neighbouring string, hit against the fingerboard, or cause any
   other
       extraneous noises. If a string has the potential to sound wonderful
     but
       does not meet these two criteria, then it is of no use whatsoever.
       <[5][5][10][email-masked]> wrote:
       >>>>>    This mean the eford to mannage twice products and honestly
   I
       do not
       stressed
     that
       maybe
       >>>>>    stretch tooo much and that the sound is too bright) or it
   is
       better to
       >>>>>    switch to a less elastic plastic support with the
   advantage
       that it
     tried
       the
       >>>>>    To: Mimmo Peruffo ;
   [6][6][11][email-masked]
     original
       elastic
     my
       Harz
       stiffer
       made of
       >>>>>    To get on or off this list see list information at
   [7][7][12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
       >>> [8][8][13]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
       >>
       >>
       >> ---
       >> [9][9][14]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
       >>
       >>
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---

From: Jarosław Lipski <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2017 11:49:43 +0100

Hello Anthony,

I am fine, thank you. I haven’t heard from you for a while, but it’s nice to see you on our lute list again :)
Actually I meant KF strings. String ends have to be split (whittled if you like), otherwise they are so stiff that tying them would be very difficult. Also they wouldn’t form a proper knot and initial point of vibration would be further away from the bridge. In general this kind of problem is characteristic for very stiff strings. Fortunately Venices  due to their rope construction are much more pliable, so there is no problem with attaching them at the bridge.

Best wishes

Jaroslaw

> On 04 Feb 2017, at 00:20, Anthony Hind <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> Hello Jaroslaw
> When you say of your Venice, "Yes, mine have split ends at the bridge." Do you mean you have managed to separate the ends of the twine and pass them separately through the bridge hole?
> This is what Charles Besnainou does with his spring twines. This results probably in a lower impedance in the same way as Martin's whittled down KFs, I would suppose?
> Best wishes 
> Anthony 
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone <https://yho.com/footer0>
> 
> Le vendredi, février 3, 2017, 4:45 PM, Jarosław Lipski <[email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>> a écrit :
> 
> Martin,
> 
> >>> Cc: Arto Wikla ;  <>[email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>
> >>>> Cc: Arto Wikla ;  <>[email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>
> >>>>>> On Feb 3, 2017, at 8:29, Mimmo Peruffo < <>[email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>  To: Mimmo Peruffo ;  <>[email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>
> >>>>>>   http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html <http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>  --
> >>>> 
> >>>> ---
> >>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> ---
> >>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> > ---
> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
> > 

--

---

From: Anthony Hind <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2017 17:21:27 +0000 (UTC)

I don't think I disagree Martyn, you say "Martin's practice of thinning
   at the bridge is probably  to allow the string there to vibrate around
   a clean take off point thus minimising frequency absorption (ie
   damping)", I have used the expression "lowering impedance", ie
   minimising resistance to vibration, or as you prefer, "minimising
   damping" (I was only referring to this marginal effect of whittling
   down) and not suggesting the characteristics of the string as whole are
   not more important.

   I was actually thinking that whittling down a KF string had a similar
   effect to passing only one element of a twine through the bridge hole,
   as Charles Besnainou does with his air core "polyethylene" (or similar)
   twine strings. Of course it is the air core structure that makes that
   string exceptionally low impedance, the passing of only one element of
   the twine through the bridge just further lowers the impedance.
   Similarly the use of a relatively high density KF string should reduce
   impedance compared to a lower density HT gut diapason, the whittling
   down further lowers resistance (or damping) I would not contest that.

   Always a pleasure to discuss these string issues with you,

   Best wishes

   Anthony

   Le samedi, fÃ©vrier 4, 2017, 10:05 AM, Martyn Hodgson
   <[email-masked]> a Ã©crit :

     Thinning of a string will, of course, affect its flexibility where
   the
     thinning occurs but the state of the remainder of the string (ie the
     vast majority of it) remains unchanged and it is this which
   principally
     produces the sound and thus the quality. As remarked earlier,
   thinning
     at the bridge does have a benefit of reducing loss at this point by
     making a more focused take off point rather than one where the string
     can move significantly in the shallower groove produced by a thicker
     string.
     Thus, as we might expect and, indeed, experience the material
     make-up of the totality of the string is what largely produces the
     sound we hear - hence, for example, why loaded gut produces a more
     satisfactory bass than plain gut.
     regards
     Martyn
       __________________________________________________________________
     From: Anthony Hind <[2][email-masked]>
     To: Martyn Hodgson <[3][email-masked]>; Martin Shepherd
     <[4][email-masked]>; "[5][email-masked]"
     <[6][email-masked]>
     Sent: Friday, 3 February 2017, 20:45
     Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE]
   Baroque
     Lute Stringing
       Apologies for allowing the incomplete message to shoot forth
       Dear Martyn
             I tend to see methods for reducing the inharmonicity of a
     string
       as simply ways of lowering its impedance to bending while
   maintaining
       its weight: either a) by increasing its elasticity or b) by
   improving
       its flexibility (bendability) through keeping it as thin as
   possible
       for the same weight (particularly near the fixed points from which
   it
       moves). I see loading and thinning at the bridge as similar
   processes
       of type b; while i agree there are many other factors which also
     effect
       the way a string resonates.
       Of course these are merely layman's  weak metaphors for which I
   also
       apologise.
       Best wishes
       Anthony
       [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
       Le vendredi, fÃ ©vrier 3, 2017, 4:52 PM, Martyn Hodgson
       <[1][7][email-masked]> a Ã ©crit :
       Dear Anthony,
       I may well have misunderstood the point you make
       'and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving similarly  to
       loading, but as though the loading were more of the same material'
       - surely the physical characteristics of a string largely determine
     the
       sound - else why bother?
       Martin's practice of thinning at the bridge is probably  to allow
   the
       string there to vibrate around a clean take off point thus
   minimising
       frequency absorption (ie damping) and, as Martin said, to avoid
   the
       thickish string buzzing against the bridge.  This is not, of
   course,
     to
       say that the rest of the physical characteristics of the string are
       immaterial! The characteristics of the string and hence sound are
       determined by the totality of the vibrating length and thus the
       material, its dimensions its elasticity, stiffness, etc. Otherwise
     one
       might as well make a string out of anything and it would sound the
     same
       if the bridge thinning were identical ......
       regards
       Martyn

   __________________________________________________________________
       From: Martin Shepherd <[2][8][email-masked]>
       To: Anthony Hind <[3][9][email-masked]>; JarosÃaw Lipski
       <[4][10][email-masked]>;
   "[5][11][email-masked]"
       <[6][12][email-masked]>
       Sent: Friday, 3 February 2017, 15:35
       Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque Lute Stringing
         Thinning the string probably does weaken it, but since the
   strings
     in
         question are way below their breaking strain that would never be
   a
         problem.  I have not tried thinning at the nut, but I suspect if
   it
         could be done it might improve the sound still further.  There is
         something to be said for thinning them where they go through the
     hole
         in the peg, allowing a smaller hole to be used and also making it
         easier to persuade the string to bend around the peg.
         Martin
         On 03/02/2017 15:45, Anthony Hind wrote:
           By thinning them at the bridge, Martin, I suppose this allows
   the
           diapason to be "seen" (as it were) at the bridge as a thinish
       loaded
           string. The effective resonating diameter being that passing
       through
           the hole and the extra diameter beyond the bridge behaving
       similarly
           to loading, but as though the loading were more of the same
       material
           (albeit with a brake on the harmonicity where the whole string
       psses
           over the nut)? Does the whittling down weaken the string? Could
     you
           also thin it at the nut?
         Best wishes
         Anthony
           [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
           Le vendredi, fÃ ©vrier 3, 2017, 2:00 PM, Martin Shepherd
           [2]<[2][7][13][email-masked]> a Ã ©crit :
         Just to explain:
         When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was
       talking
         only about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.
         For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to
   use
         will
         not work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and
       stiff
         to work.  On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing
       larger
         than 1.50mm (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th course.
         Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them
       where
         they go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of
   the
         bridge.  If you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you
   will
         probably get problems with the strings buzzing against the top of
     the
         bridge.
         Martin
     gut?
       I
     are
         brighter than plain gut
         > I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side.
   KFs
       have
         shorter sustain, are more percussive and Ã ¢ ¦slightly duller
   sound
     IMO.
         KFs work well till 11th course on BQL. I don't like them on
       diapasons.
         CDs have stronger fundamental, longer sustain (much longer than
     guts)
         and work very well on diapasons, however their elasticity make
   them
         work only on instruments with higher than normal action and wide
       string
         spacing. Also tuning is not ideal.
         aim at finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings
       would
         be better. I am used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a
       little
         bit stiffer string. If someone played only overwounds he/she
   would
         probably prefer longer sustain. So the answer to your question
   will
         depend on whom you'll ask.
         > All in all there is no one answer to this question, and
   probably
       you
         >> Cc: Arto Wikla ; [3][3][8][14][email-masked]
     In
         the
       of
         the
       me
         is
         >>> actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half
   loaded
         using also a stiffer elastomer.  This combination is perfect fo
   the
         tonl trasiction betweenj pure gut/nylon/Nylgut to a wound
   strings,
     KF
         or CDs etc etc.
         >>> I call this range of gauges simply as Meanes. they are still
   CD
         types however.
         >>> In practice they  are around the 5th course of renaissance &
   d
         minor Lutes.
         >>> I have intentionally exluded the  4th courses because make
   not
         sense at all to use a denser strings on it. The  80 CD is just
   done
       for
         those that are curious.
         >>> well, I done the very first prototypes (than cannot be
   perfect)
       and
         sent out to some friends to hear their opinions: of course, some
   of
         them were uneven. Despite that I had very good reports.
         >>> Martin, a stiffer string has an higher elasticity modulus so
     the
         performances are  less good than those of an equivalent string
   with
         more elasticity. You probably reffers to the KF strings. However
       there
         are others parameters at work here, for example the inner damping
         effect is one of them, and it  is not related to the elasticity
         modulus. This explain for example why a special kind of nylon,
     whose
         density is far less than fluorocarbon sound like this one. It was
   a
         huge surprise to me!
         >>> False strings? yes, with prototypes  can happen. when one
   start
         with  the ufficial production an extruder plant work exatly in
   the
       same
         even way. The first strings are the waste and then the rest are
     done
         exactly in the same way.
         >>> Cc: Arto Wikla ; [4][4][9][15][email-masked]
     intonation
         when
       an
         open
         >>> string, and the pattern of vibration makes it buzz against
   the
         frets.
       are
         the
       not
         (can
       that
         the
     would
         almost
         >>> expect the opposite - as a comparison, the KF strings are
   very
         stiff but
     with
       a
     the
         new
         >>>> In my opinion there are two factors which need to be given
         priority even before judging the sound of a string. Firstly it
   has
     to
         be true (with no problems of intonation going up the fingerboard
     for
         stopped strings) and secondly it has to be playable: on a
   well-made
       and
         well set up lute, it must not catch on the nut, buzz, hit a
         neighbouring string, hit against the fingerboard, or cause any
     other
         extraneous noises. If a string has the potential to sound
   wonderful
       but
         does not meet these two criteria, then it is of no use
   whatsoever.
         >>>> Once that is established, obviously players want a string
   with
     a
         full-bodied and stable tone, enough sustain to make voice-leading
   a
         pleasure and the instrument to sing to the best of its ability
   and
         sufficient power to provide convincing projection and resonance.
     I
         do not
         stressed
         >>>>>    by me!
         >>>>>
         >>>>>    I should do a choice and in fast time: is it better a
   more
         elastic
       that
         maybe
     is
         better to
     advantage
         that it
       tried
         the
         >>>>>    Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:46 PM
     [6][6][11][17][email-masked]
         >>>>>    if you decide to make the loaded nylgut strings (CD)
   less
         elastic, I
       original
         elastic
       my
         Harz
         stiffer
         made of
         >>>>>    To get on or off this list see list information at
     [7][7][12][18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
         software.
         >>> [8][8][13][19]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
         >>
         >>
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         >> [9][9][14][20]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
         >>
         >>
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From: "Mimmo Peruffo" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 15:26:23 +0100

well guys, I think to have good news.
I am doing, right now, the first few strings using a stiffer elasthomer and 
the same quantity of copper powder. I must admit that the process is even 
easy than before.

The strings are absolutely no false and pretty even.

The sound: darker and with less sustain, similar to those of the  2nd 
generation of the loaded gut strings (venices charged with copper powder).

They stretch less and they are even  more slippering on the nut- grooves.
I am doing the Meanes now. I have a bit of difficoults but I am not worry at 
all. I will find the way soon.
This is just a short report.
I will do a short video for my own Youtube channel.
ciao
Mimmo

---

From: Rob MacKillop <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 14:32:52 +0000

That sounds encouraging!
   Rob

   On 7 Feb 2017 14:27, "Mimmo Peruffo" <[1][email-masked]>
   wrote:

     well guys, I think to have good news.
     I am doing, right now, the first few strings using a stiffer
     elasthomer and the same quantity of copper powder. I must admit that
     the process is even easy than before.
     The strings are absolutely no false and pretty even.
     The sound: darker and with less sustain, similar to those of the
     2nd generation of the loaded gut strings (venices charged with
     copper powder).
     They stretch less and they are even   more slippering on the nut-
     grooves.
     I am doing the Meanes now. I have a bit of difficoults but I am not
     worry at all. I will find the way soon.
     This is just a short report.
     I will do a short video for my own Youtube channel.
     ciao
     Mimmo
     To get on or off this list see list information at
     [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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---

From: "Mimmo Peruffo" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 21:28:38 +0100

Here is:

the not red bass string that is the 11 course  is those made with more 
stiffer elastomer. the turns on the peg where just half. th sound has less 
sustain and it is powerfull and darker. I am very happy with it. The 5 
course: the string of that course I am playing is made with a stiffer 
elastomer and have the same quantity of copper. I like it a lot: less 
metallic and indeed less stretchly, far more blanced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4s4CkDP580&feature=em-upload_owner

well i stop here. I have flu now (thanks London!) it is a pity, I would like 
to start to do the batch soon.
Mimmo

---

From: Rob MacKillop <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 09:57:19 +0000

Not the best audio, but they do seem more gut-like to me.
   Rob

   On 7 February 2017 at 20:28, Mimmo Peruffo
   <[1][email-masked]> wrote:

     Here is:
     the not red bass string that is the 11 course   is those made with
     more stiffer elastomer. the turns on the peg where just half. th
     sound has less sustain and it is powerfull and darker. I am very
     happy with it. The 5 course: the string of that course I am playing
     is made with a stiffer elastomer and have the same quantity of
     copper. I like it a lot: less metallic and indeed less stretchly,
     far more blanced.
     [2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4s4CkDP580&feature=em-uploa
     d_owner
     well i stop here. I have flu now (thanks London!) it is a pity, I
     would like to start to do the batch soon.
     Mimmo
     To get on or off this list see list information at
     [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: Anthony Hind <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 17:55:43 +0000 (UTC)

Thanks JarosÅaw

          Whereas professional loaded basses users were forced to look for
   reliable replacements (experimenting Gimped, pure gut, ropes or
   otherwise), I was just keeping my old loaded basses going and lost
   contact with the various As an ex-phonetician factors in sound
   production, the various bass string hypotheses do interest me, but as a
   complete lutenist amateur amateur thought I could just keep my old
   Venice loaded going, swapping worn ones for new old stock early HT gut
   loaded. While Professionals, I knew, needing good repeatable stringing
   experimented with Gimped, pure gut (ropes or HT), or KF basses, I kept
   putting off the inevitable. A friend successfully swapped his loaded to
   Dan Larson's silver Gimped, and then I "gave in" and was just about to
   try a set myself, when Mimmo brought out his new synthetic loaded, and
   of course I had to try them (my Gimped still in my lute case). So for a
   time just a bystander while others experimented.

   Had the Gimped not worked for me I would have tried Venice basses (as
   Ed Martin reported successfully using pure Pistoys), but thought the
   silver Gimped would work better with my set up (I listened with
   interest to Dan L.'s recordings of lutes using either pure Pistoys or
   Gimped basses).  I was thinking about all this, but just didn't get
   round to doing anything about it. I did follow recent debates on the
   French list concerning the KF whittled down and used at low tensions,
   and also a recent article by Charles Besnainou on his air core basses
   (proving the wealth of different experiments on lute basses of which I
   have been partly aware, so not completely out of things).

   In respect to Venices, perhaps your differenceh of appreciation,
   compared to Martin, could result from your using them at different
   tensions: I imagine they would not work well at the low tensions Martin
   may perhaps have tried them. Indeed I use my Venice octaves at a higher
   tension than my , basses, and love them in that use.

   On the question of more or less sustain on basses, I suppose we all
   adapt by tweaking our styles and tensions to our string choices; but
   just the fact that French lutenists sought out vintage lutes, could
   according to Jakob Lindberg's experience with the Rauwolf, imply
   articulate sustain was very important to them, and so possibly also for
   their basses? perhaps ...

   Best wishes

   Anthony

   Le samedi, fÃ©vrier 4, 2017, 11:49 AM, JarosÅaw Lipski
   <[email-masked]> a Ã©crit :

   Hello Anthony,
   I am fine, thank you. I haven't heard from you for a while, but it's
   nice to see you on our lute list again :)
   Actually I meant KF strings. String ends have to be split (whittled if
   you like), otherwise they are so stiff that tying them would be very
   difficult. Also they wouldn't form a proper knot and initial point of
   vibration would be further away from the bridge. In general this kind
   of problem is characteristic for very stiff strings. Fortunately
   Venices  due to their rope construction are much more pliable, so there
   is no problem with attaching them at the bridge.
   Best wishes
   Jaroslaw
   > When you say of your Venice, "Yes, mine have split ends at the
   bridge." Do you mean you have managed to separate the ends of the twine
   and pass them separately through the bridge hole?
   > Best wishes
   > Anthony
   >
   >
   > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone <[1]https://yho.com/footer0>
   >
   > >
   >
   > I am using 1.60 on 11th course and it works fine for me. But again
   it's a matter of taste.
   > >>> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut?
   I have the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped
   string was done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins'
   twisted like as rope and then polished. In practice our Venices.
   > >> Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They
   are brighter than plain gut
   > >> Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If
   you aim at finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings
   would be better. I am used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a
   little bit stiffer string. If someone played only overwounds he/she
   would probably prefer longer sustain. So the answer to your question
   will depend on whom you'll ask.
   > >> All in all there is no one answer to this question, and probably
   you would have to take into consideration your business strategy.
   > >>> The issue of damping is perhaps the one which worries me most.
   In the
   > >>> case of roped strings, they sound duller than a plain gut string
   of the
   me is
   > >>>> well, I am leaving italy to London so I have not time to re
   start; I will do some samples both for meanes and basses just to see if
   they actually works in the proper way
   > >>>> notes are fretted.  A false string never sounds in tune even as
   an open
   are the
   not (can
   > >>>> you tell us, Mimmo?).  I'm slightly puzzled by the suggestion
   that the
   > >>>> less elastic version would have a duller or darker sound, I
   would almost
   > >>>>> Once that is established, obviously players want a string with
   a full-bodied and stable tone, enough sustain to make voice-leading a
   pleasure and the instrument to sing to the best of its ability and
   sufficient power to provide convincing projection and resonance.
   > >>>>>> On Feb 3, 2017, at 8:29, Mimmo Peruffo <
   > >>>>>>  string like these are (whith problems related to the fact
   that maybe
   > >>>>>>  version in your repertoire! They work exceptionally well on
   my Harz
   stiffer
   made of
   > >>>>>>  [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   <[3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>
   software.
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   software.
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---

From: Ed Durbrow <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 10:32:49 -1000

Has anyone done a survey of paintings and noticed any indications of thinning the strings at the bridge or nut? 

>   problem. 

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/

--

---

From: Anthony Hind <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 21:13:41 +0000 (UTC)

Dear Ed

      When a gut strings begins to fail, we seem to see fibres breaking! I
   assume from that that gut is made up of fibres, and if we thin them we
   would be breaking these fibres. I suppose if this is not the case with
   KF, it probably is not fibrous. Am I right? Martin Shepherd will
   probably know.

   I suppose gut string might be reduceable with a soldering iron, or
   similar fusing the fibres together. But has something similar ever been
   tried?
   On the other hand with a rope twine it could be possible to leave the
   two strands separate at one end and only pass one of these through the
   bridge hole. Charles Besnainou believes one painting shows something
   like this. Apparently Louis Pernot makes his own gut twine and passes
   only one of the strands through the bridge hole, the other strand goes
   over the bridge. But this does not exactly answer your question.
   Best Wishes
   Anthony
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   Le mercredi, fÃ©vrier 15, 2017, 9:33 PM, Ed Durbrow
   <[email-masked]> a Ã©crit :

   Has anyone done a survey of paintings and noticed any indications of
   thinning the strings at the bridge or nut?
   in
   >  question are way below their breaking strain that would never be a
   Ed Durbrow
   Saitama, Japan
   [2]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
   [3]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
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---

From: Mimmo <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 00:12:41 +0100

Dear Ed
I have done this job on almost 100 or di on old lute paintings and I never saw this way to fit the bass strings on the bridge
By the way : if it was an historical option why the strings were sold in three sorts ? Treble , meanes and basses ? Treble and Menes should me sufficient
The second question. Is : is not easier to drill larger holes ??
On the old paintings till today almost i just see the usual way to fit the strings, nothing of different
Mimmo 

Inviato da iPhone

> Il giorno 15 feb 2017, alle ore 21:32, Ed Durbrow <[email-masked]> ha scritto:
>

---

From: Martin Shepherd <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 09:27:18 +0100

Hi Ed,

I was only talking about KF strings.  I imagine it would be impossible 
with any kind of gut string, and of course there is no evidence for it 
in paintings.

I guess (and it is only a guess) that the original gut strings would 
have been quite flexible (and thin) and there would be no particular 
problem tying them to the bridge.  And as Mimmo says, if the strings 
were that thick, why didn't they just make the holes bigger?

Martin

---