Subject: Ms 5038 in Norway, ca 1830?

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 23:02:12 -0500

All:
   I ran across this baroque lute manuscript in the Norway National Museum
   (Nasjonalbibliteket). From about 1830, it seems rather late for baroque
   lute. Does anyone know anything about the manuscript or the music? And
   my Norwegian is quite poor (read - nonexistent) - is it possible to
   download the manuscript from the website (or order it? there is a
   shopping cart icon)? Cheers- trj
   http://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/1c1e904cef8b1d14852fe645b2386ed5?index=1#0

   --

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From: Stuart Walsh <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 05:11:05 +0000

It's for five-course guitar. 17th century I think.

-----Original Message-----
From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Sent: ‎03/‎01/‎2016 04:05
To: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Ms 5038 in Norway, ca 1830?

   All:

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From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 23:23:15 -0800

Yes, you can download the manuscript from the site. Click the shopping cart,
then the left icon with a +. 
Then press the Send key.
This will create a new meny in the upper right (Hentekurv (1) ). Select it
then press "Last ned alle" to download the file.

It is about 31MB.

Here is a link with some more information:
http://earlyguitar.ning.com/forum/topics/the-complete-hertzberg

Looks like fun.

Regards
David

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf
Of [email-masked]
Sent: Saturday, January 2, 2016 8:02 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Ms 5038 in Norway, ca 1830?

   All:

   --

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From: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 09:39:03 +0000 (UTC)

The book first belonged to Johanne Christine Hertzberg (1708 - 1801)
   and in my view was mostly compiled around 1740/50 but contains some
   works from late seventeenth century French sources. The music is also
   very similar to that by Nathanael Diesel in the large MS compilation
   held in the Royal Library Copenhagen (Diesel was employed at the Danish
   royal court around 1740) thus confirming Nordic acquaintance with this
   sort of repertoire.
   The works are treble and bass oreientated and thus probably the
   instrument had bass bourdons on the fourth and fifth courses - perhaps
   even on the thumb side (like a lute).
   The music is also eminently playable on the five course mandora (an
   instrument rapidly gaining in popularity across Europe around this
   time) so this possibility should not be ruled out.
   MH
     __________________________________________________________________

   From: Stuart Walsh <[email-masked]>
   To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
   Sent: Sunday, 3 January 2016, 5:11
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms 5038 in Norway, ca 1830?
   It's for five-course guitar. 17th century I think.
   -----Original Message-----
   From: "[1][email-masked]"
   <[2][email-masked]>
   Sent: a03/a01/a2016 04:05
   To: "[3][email-masked]"
   <[4][email-masked]>
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Ms 5038 in Norway, ca 1830?
     All:
     I ran across this baroque lute manuscript in the Norway National
   Museum
     (Nasjonalbibliteket). From about 1830, it seems rather late for
   baroque
     lute. Does anyone know anything about the manuscript or the music?
   And
     my Norwegian is quite poor (read - nonexistent) - is it possible to
     download the manuscript from the website (or order it? there is a

   [5]http://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/1c1e904cef8b1d14852fe645b2386ed5?index=1#0
     --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --

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References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]
   2. mailto:[email-masked]
   3. mailto:[email-masked]
   4. mailto:[email-masked]
   5. http://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/1c1e904cef8b1d14852fe645b2386ed5?index=1#0
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: "G. C." <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 12:35:54 +0100

There is a download button, to the right of the pages display. It says
   "last ned". Click on that and you can download in normal or high
   resolution (hA,y) and the whole document (alle) or single pages (sider
   - write the desired page) Then download with the red button, bottom
   left which says "last ned". Don't know if you have to be in Norway to
   get access though.
   If you choose high resolution, its a 415 Mb document! But can probably
   be optimized and shrunken.
   Baroque guitar manuscript presumably, french repertory. Many empty
   pages. Looks like a guest book with all those greetings (haven't
   checked them). German psalms at the end.
   G.

   On Sun, Jan 3, 2016 at 5:02 AM,
   <[1][email-masked]> wrote:

        All:
        I ran across this baroque lute manuscript in the Norway National
     Museum
        (Nasjonalbibliteket). From about 1830, it seems rather late for
     baroque
        lute. Does anyone know anything about the manuscript or the
     music? And
        my Norwegian is quite poor (read - nonexistent) - is it possible
     to
        download the manuscript from the website (or order it? there is a
        shopping cart icon)? Cheers- trj

     [2]http://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/1c1e904cef8b1d14852fe645b2386ed5?index=
     1#0
        --
     To get on or off this list see list information at
     [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]
   2. http://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/1c1e904cef8b1d14852fe645b2386ed5?index=1#0
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: Christopher Wilke <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 13:09:52 +0000 (UTC)

There are pieces by Lully (Ouverture de la Grotte de Versailles, etc.)u
   as well as more Italiante repertoire. There's a nice sonata for two
   guitars beginning on page 109. I don't think people were actually
   playing these pieces in 1830.
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   On Sunday, January 3, 2016, 6:37 AM, G. C. <[email-masked]> wrote:

     There is a download button, to the right of the pages display. It
   says
     "last ned". Click on that and you can download in normal or high
     resolution (hA,y) and the whole document (alle) or single pages
   (sider
     - write the desired page) Then download with the red button, bottom
     left which says "last ned". Don't know if you have to be in Norway to
     get access though.
     If you choose high resolution, its a 415 Mb document! But can
   probably
     be optimized and shrunken.
     Baroque guitar manuscript presumably, french repertory. Many empty
     pages. Looks like a guest book with all those greetings (haven't
     checked them). German psalms at the end.
     G.
     On Sun, Jan 3, 2016 at 5:02 AM,
     <[1][2][email-masked]> wrote:
           All:
           I ran across this baroque lute manuscript in the Norway
   National
       Museum
           (Nasjonalbibliteket). From about 1830, it seems rather late for
       baroque
           lute. Does anyone know anything about the manuscript or the
       music? And
           my Norwegian is quite poor (read - nonexistent) - is it
   possible
       to
           download the manuscript from the website (or order it? there is
   a
           shopping cart icon)? Cheers- trj

   [2][3]http://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/1c1e904cef8b1d14852fe645b2386ed5?index=
       1#0
           --
       To get on or off this list see list information at
       [3][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
     --
   References
     1. mailto:[5][email-masked]
     2.
   [6]http://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/1c1e904cef8b1d14852fe645b2386ed5?index=1#0
     3. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. https://yho.com/footer0
   2. javascript:return
   3. http://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/1c1e904cef8b1d14852fe645b2386ed5?index=
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. javascript:return
   6. http://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/1c1e904cef8b1d14852fe645b2386ed5?index=1#0
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: "G. C." <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 14:27:30 +0100

You might be right about that, as the repertory seems extremely old for
   1830. But the book was used also as a guest book, and those dates
   around 1829-30 are mainly to be found there. The front page seems to be
   a description of the lady who owned the book, (perhaps by a descendant,
   after her death), but I have problems reading those.

   --

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From: David van Ooijen <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 14:30:08 +0100

Coste arranged De VisA(c)e in the 19th century, so his music was still
   around.
   David

   --

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From: AJN <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2016 08:19:26 -0600 (CST)

It might be considered to be a tablature and autograph book of Niels
   Hertzberg.
   The dates (1829-230) all are in the autograph sections (page
   120ff./side 126ff.).
   Modegaard, Malmanger and Ullensvang are among the place names I
   could read by the autograph signatures.
   There are many of these autograph books from former years.  Especially
   compiled by
   university students. Some have tablature pieces and drawings (e.g., of
   students serenading).

   On 01/03/16, G. C.<[email-masked]> wrote:

   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/

---

From: AJN <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2016 08:36:03 -0600 (CST)

From: AJN
   Date: Jan 3, 2016 9:19:26 AM
   Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms 5038 in Norway, ca 1830?
   To: [email-masked], [email-masked]
   Cc: [email-masked], [email-masked]

   students serenading).   --Arthur

   On 01/03/16, G. C.<[1][email-masked]> wrote:

   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/

---

From: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 15:31:22 +0000 (UTC)

Henning has written about this book - I've no reason to doubt it.
   [1]http://folk.uio.no/henninho/Gitar.html
   MH
     __________________________________________________________________

   From: AJN <[email-masked]>
   To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
   Cc: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
   Sent: Sunday, 3 January 2016, 14:19
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms 5038 in Norway, ca 1830?
     It might be considered to be a tablature and autograph book of Niels
     Hertzberg.
     The dates (1829-230) all are in the autograph sections (page
     120ff./side 126ff.).
     Modegaard, Malmanger and Ullensvang are among the place names I
     could read by the autograph signatures.
     There are many of these autograph books from former years.
   Especially
     compiled by
     university students. Some have tablature pieces and drawings (e.g.,
   of
     students serenading).
     On 01/03/16, G. C.<[2][email-masked]> wrote:
     You might be right about that, as the repertory seems extremely old
   for
     1830. But the book was used also as a guest book, and those dates
     around 1829-30 are mainly to be found there. The front page seems to
   be
     a description of the lady who owned the book, (perhaps by a
   descendant,
     after her death), but I have problems reading those.
     --
     To get on or off this list see list information at
     [1][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   References
     1. [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/

   --

References

   1. http://folk.uio.no/henninho/Gitar.html
   2. mailto:[email-masked]
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/

---

From: "G. C." <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 21:12:18 +0100

I haven't seen those accentuated "a"s before in a BG ms.
   G.

   --

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From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 13:40:11 -0800

I only found the high/normal by choosing HTML instead of flash. That seemed
to work.
David

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf
Of G. C.
Sent: Sunday, January 3, 2016 3:36 AM
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms 5038 in Norway, ca 1830?

        All:

   --

References

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From: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 08:41:47 +0000 (UTC)

Are you referring to the little strokes after the tablature letter 'a'
   as found, say, on page 115 in the ms? - I take them to be rests.
   Incidentally, in an earlier private correspondence about this
   particular ms I pointed out that the source contains some works very
   similar in texture to those by Nathanael Diesel in the very large ms
   compilation held in the Royal Library Copenhagen (Diesel was employed
   at the Danish royal court around 1740) thus confirming Nordic
   acquaintance with this sort of repertoire. I'd also suggest a date of
   around 1740 for the compilation of the Hertzberg MS.
   The works are treble and bass orientated and thus probably the
   instrument had bass bourdons on the fourth and fifth courses - perhaps
   even on the thumb side (like a lute).
   Whilst I'd agree that the likely instrument for the Hertzberg book
   pieces is the five course guitar (probably with bourdons), the music is
   also eminently playable on the five course mandora (an instrument
   rapidly gaining in popularity across Europe around this time) so this
   other possibility should not be ruled out.  Indeed, a very interesting
   ms source (CZ-Brn Ms D189) equates intabulated pieces for the guitar
   and also for the mandora/gallichon(here called Callezono).  For
   example, f. 48 has a 'Fundamenta Chytarra' and 48v has 'Accordo
   Chytarra et Mandora' with many pieces following (f.48v - f. 96v) for a
   five course guitar or mandora.
   Finally, regarding the old-fashioned nature of some of the contents of
   the Hertzberg book, it's not unusual for a young pupil to copy out
   works given them by their teacher. It's therefore not surprising that a
   teacher from an earlier generation would have passed on works from
   their own youth.
   MH
     __________________________________________________________________

   From: G. C. <[email-masked]>
   To: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
   Cc: AJN <[email-masked]>; "[email-masked]"
   <[email-masked]>; "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>;
   "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
   Sent: Sunday, 3 January 2016, 20:12
   Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms 5038 in Norway, ca 1830?
   I haven't seen those accentuated "a"s before in a BG ms.
   G.

   --