Subject: Swan Neck Baroque Lute for sale

From: Anton Birula <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 00:20:22 -0700

Swan neck baroque  lute by Anatoli Gundilowicz string length 69/95 nice action warm tone works well with all sorts of stringing, good for works by Weiss and Bach as well as for French repertoire. The Body is nice to hold not too deep.

Pictures can be seen here (9 photos)

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=789657364401930&id=193101590724180

For More information please contact Anna Kowalska :

[email-masked]
[email-masked]
+48663354744
www.luteduo.com

---

From: Roman Turovsky <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 06:17:00 -0400

Caveat emptor.
My understanding is that this lute has bridge spacing of 146mm, which 
renders it pretty much unplayable.

RT

On 6/21/2014 3:20 AM, Anton Birula wrote:
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

---

From: "Louis Aull" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 07:59:56 -0400

Roman,

I play two lutes with 146mm bridge spacing without a problem, the historic
lute they were copied from had that spacing. It depends on the playing
technique and digit size. Carpe Diem if your carpe is big enough.

Lou Aull

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf
Of Roman Turovsky
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 6:17 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Swan Neck Baroque Lute for sale

Caveat emptor.

RT

On 6/21/2014 3:20 AM, Anton Birula wrote:
>
> Swan neck baroque  lute by Anatoli Gundilowicz string length 69/95 nice
action warm tone works well with all sorts of stringing, good for works by
Weiss and Bach as well as for French repertoire. The Body is nice to hold
not too deep.

---

From: Matthew Daillie <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 14:01:36 +0200

I am not familiar with this lute but 13-course bridge spacings vary roughly between 140mm and 152mm so I don't see why this pretty classic R.H. spacing should make it 'unplayable'.

Best

Matthew

On 23 juin 2014, at 12:17, Roman Turovsky <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Caveat emptor.
> My understanding is that this lute has bridge spacing of 146mm, which renders it pretty much unplayable.
> 
> RT
> 
> 
>

---

From: David Van Edwards <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 14:11:46 +0100

Dear All,

The variation in historical models is very wide. 
You might be interested in these examples. 
Players should choose for their own comfort.

BRUNER,  Martin		1764	Prague					152
BURKHOLZER, Hanns	1596	Vienna KHM	44 / 4056 / NE 48	153
EDLINGER,  Thomas	<1734	Leipzig	497				155
EDLINGER,  Thomas	<1734	Leipzig	3319				155
GOLDT,  Jacobus Henricus	1734	London  V&A	4274-1856	155
HOFFMANN,  J C	c.1720	Berlin	129					145
HOFFMANN,  J C	c. 1720	London,  Horniman	1975 506 LAB 4792	148
HOFFMANN,  J C	1720	Leipzig	506					153
HOFFMANN,  Martin	169	Nurnberg  GNM	MI 245			142
HOFFMANN, J. C.	1730	Brussels	M 3188				141
HOFFMANN, J. C.	1720	Paris CNSM	E 529				146
HOFFMANN, J. C.	c.1720	Horniman	LAB 4792			148
HOFFMANN, J. C.		St. Petersburg	1346				145
HOFFMANN, JC	1720	Paris	E 529					146
HOFFMANN, Martin	169?	Nürnberg	MI 245			142
MALER,  Laux	1555	Nurnberg	MI 54				143
RAUCHE,  Michael	1762	London  V&A	9-1871			150
SCHELLE,  Sebastian	1744/8	Nurnberg	MI 46			142
SCHELLE,  Sebastian	1721	Nurnberg	902			143
SCHELLE, Sebastian	1721	Nürnberg	MIR 902			143
TIEFFENBRUCKER,	1610?	Den Haag	Ec 555-1933		155
TIEFFENBRUCKER   [Edlinger?]	1732?	Vienna KHM	AR 969		156
UNVERDORBEN, Marx	1607 ??	Prague	656				154
UNVERDORBEN, Marx	158?	Fenton House				152
VENERE / SCHELLE		Leipzig MIMU	3357			148
WIDHALM,  Leopold	1755	Nurnberg	MIR 903			148
WIDHALM, Leopold	1755	Nurnberg	MIR 903			148
JAUCH, Andreas	1734	Copenhagen					161
JAUCK, Johannes	1734	Vienna KHM					165

Best wishes,

David

At 14:01 +0200 23/6/14, Matthew Daillie wrote:
>I am not familiar with this lute but 13-course 
>bridge spacings vary roughly between 140mm and 
>152mm so I don't see why this pretty classic 
>R.H. spacing should make it 'unplayable'.
>
>Best
>
>Matthew
>
>
>>  My understanding is that this lute has bridge 
>>spacing of 146mm, which renders it pretty much 
>>unplayable.
>>
>>  RT
>>
>>
>>
>>>  Swan neck baroque  lute by Anatoli 
>>>Gundilowicz string length 69/95 nice action 
>>>warm tone works well with all sorts of 
>>>stringing, good for works by Weiss and Bach as 
>>>well as for French repertoire. The Body is 
>>>nice to hold not too deep.
>>>

-- 
The Smokehouse,
6 Whitwell Road,
Norwich,  NR1 4HB      
England.

Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

---

From: Anton Birula <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 07:38:15 -0700

Thanks David:))))))
Indeed this spacing is the most usual today. I do not really know what Roman means.... Is it to narrow for him or to wide. All our lutes have always been 146 -147,
one can easily look for LUTEDUO on youtube to check if it is playable or not :)

Best wishes, Anna & Anton

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 6/23/14, David Van Edwards <[email-masked]> wrote:

 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Swan Neck Baroque Lute for sale
 To: "Matthew Daillie" <[email-masked]>
 Cc: [email-masked]
 Date: Monday, June 23, 2014, 3:11 PM
 
 Dear All,

 BRUNER,  Martin       
 1764    Prague   
            
     152
 BURKHOLZER, Hanns    1596   
 Vienna KHM    44 / 4056 / NE
 48    153
 EDLINGER,  Thomas   
 <1734    Leipzig   
 497           
     155
 EDLINGER,  Thomas   
 <1734    Leipzig   
 3319           
     155
 GOLDT,  Jacobus Henricus   
 1734    London 
 V&A    4274-1856    155
 HOFFMANN,  J C   
 c.1720    Berlin   
 129           
         145
 HOFFMANN,  J C    c.
 1720    London, 
 Horniman    1975 506 LAB
 4792    148
 HOFFMANN,  J C    1720   
 Leipzig    506   
            
     153
 HOFFMANN,  Martin   
 169    Nurnberg  GNM   
 MI 245       
     142
 HOFFMANN, J. C.    1730   
 Brussels    M 3188   
            
 141
 HOFFMANN, J. C.    1720   
 Paris CNSM    E 529   
            
 146
 HOFFMANN, J. C.    c.1720   
 Horniman    LAB 4792   
         148
 HOFFMANN, J. C.        St.
 Petersburg    1346   
            
 145
 HOFFMANN, JC    1720   
 Paris    E 529   
            
     146
 HOFFMANN, Martin    169?   
 Nürnberg    MI 245   
         142
 MALER,  Laux    1555   
 Nurnberg    MI 54   
            
 143
 RAUCHE,  Michael   
 1762    London 
 V&A    9-1871   
         150
 SCHELLE,  Sebastian   
 1744/8    Nurnberg    MI
 46           
 142
 SCHELLE,  Sebastian   
 1721    Nurnberg   
 902           
 143
 SCHELLE, Sebastian    1721   
 Nürnberg    MIR 902   
         143
 TIEFFENBRUCKER,    1610?   
 Den Haag    Ec 555-1933   
     155
 TIEFFENBRUCKER   [Edlinger?]   
 1732?    Vienna KHM    AR
 969        156
 UNVERDORBEN, Marx    1607
 ??    Prague   
 656           
     154
 UNVERDORBEN, Marx    158?   
 Fenton House       
         152
 VENERE / SCHELLE       
 Leipzig MIMU    3357   
         148
 WIDHALM,  Leopold   
 1755    Nurnberg    MIR
 903           
 148
 WIDHALM, Leopold    1755   
 Nurnberg    MIR 903   
         148
 JAUCH, Andreas    1734   
 Copenhagen       
            
 161
 JAUCK, Johannes    1734   
 Vienna KHM       
            
 165
 
 Best wishes,
 
 David

 

 -- 
 The Smokehouse,
 6 Whitwell Road,
 Norwich,  NR1 4HB      
 England.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 14:35:21 -0400

I won't be able to play on less than 155mm bridge width.

It is a common mistake to make ca.145mm bridges, assuming some mythical standard.

All these instruments eventually end up on the secondary market due to unplayability.

Sent from my iPhone

---

From: Matthew Daillie <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 21:00:31 +0200

I'm sorry Roman but that really is a very personal point of view. I have a second-hand instrument with bridge spacings of 150 mm which I find too wide and have played well set up lutes with bridge spacings of 140 mm which are far more comfortable. Indeed, I don't believe that I have ever come across a 13-course with such wide spacings as the ones you recommend.

The overall width of the bridge is just one factor. The type of stringing, tension, dishing, as well as the space between the strings of each course are certainly others. Additionally, one's technique is obviously a major consideration: thumb out or thumb in (if one is still trying to play renaissance lute in conjunction with baroque), the position of the right-hand in relation to the bridge, etc, etc

best

Matthew

---

From: sterling price <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 12:49:06 -0700

Hi--I know we have discussed this at length before, but both of my 13
   course lutes are 157mm for the bridge spacing. I got very used to that
   spacing and now have a hard time with anything smaller or different.
   The 157mm is based on the Edlinger AR969 drawing. I do have pretty big
   hands so that size is good for me. I have found that going between 2
   different scale lengths on 2 different lutes is no problem for the left
   hand, but going between 2 different right hand spacings is impossible
   for me.
   Sterling
   On Monday, June 23, 2014 1:03 PM, Matthew Daillie
   <[email-masked]> wrote:
   I'm sorry Roman but that really is a very personal point of view. I
   have a second-hand instrument with bridge spacings of 150 mm which I
   find too wide and have played well set up lutes with bridge spacings of
   140 mm which are far more comfortable. Indeed, I don't believe that I
   have ever come across a 13-course with such wide spacings as the ones
   you recommend.
   The overall width of the bridge is just one factor. The type of
   stringing, tension, dishing, as well as the space between the strings
   of each course are certainly others. Additionally, one's technique is
   obviously a major consideration: thumb out or thumb in (if one is still
   trying to play renaissance lute in conjunction with baroque), the
   position of the right-hand in relation to the bridge, etc, etc
   best
   Matthew
   On 23 juin 2014, at 20:35, [1][email-masked] wrote:
   > On Jun 23, 2014, at 10:38 AM, Anton Birula
   <[2][email-masked]> wrote:
   >
   >> Thanks David:))))))
   >> Indeed this spacing is the most usual today. I do not really know
   what Roman means.... Is it to narrow for him or to wide. All our lutes
   have always been 146 -147,
   >> On Mon, 6/23/14, David Van Edwards <[3][email-masked]>
   wrote:
   >> To: "Matthew Daillie" <[4][email-masked]>
   >> Cc: [5][email-masked]
   >> Nuernberg    MI 245
   >> Nuernberg    MIR 902
   >>> On 23 juin 2014, at 12:17, Roman Turovsky
   <[6][email-masked]>
   >> wrote:
   [7]https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbidx9657364401930&id31
   01590724180
   >>>>>  [8][email-masked]
   >>>>>  [9][email-masked]
   >>>>>  [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>
   >>
   >> --
   >> The Smokehouse,
   >> 6 Whitwell Road,
   >> Norwich,  NR1 4HB
   >> England.
   >>
   >> Website: [11]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >> [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >

   --

References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]
   2. mailto:[email-masked]
   3. mailto:[email-masked]
   4. mailto:[email-masked]
   5. mailto:[email-masked]
   6. mailto:[email-masked]
   7. https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbidx9657364401930&id3101590724180
   8. mailto:[email-masked]
   9. mailto:[email-masked]
  10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  11. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/
  12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 18:37:39 -0400

My hands are small, but I found 154mm to be the absolute minimum I could 
deal with.
RT

---

From: John Lenti <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 07:05:16 -0700

Whatever else happens, it's not a huge big deal to have the bridge re-drilled, or to get a new nut. If bridge or nut spacing is the one thing you don't like about an instrument, fix it. I had John Rollins re-drill my baroque lute bridge and have never been happier. Some of the original holes are part of the new spacing, he plugged the others. I've seen other lutes the bridges of which look like Swiss cheese, which also seems not to have any deleterious effects. 

Sent from my Ouija board 

> On Jun 23, 2014, at 3:39 PM, "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> My hands are small, but I found 154mm to be the absolute minimum I could deal with.
> RT
> 
>

---

From: Matthew Daillie <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 16:42:29 +0200

It is feasible to redrill the bridge holes but it's a job even (especially?) the best lute makers hate doing (the original holes are obviously done before the bridge is glued on).

Best
Matthew

---

From: Christopher Wilke <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 09:26:08 -0700

Nothing difficult about it at all. I've drilled a few holes myself on lutes and a baroque guitar and I have zero wood working skills. I used a little tiny hobby drill that I bought from Michael's hobby supply. It's basically just a short aluminum handle like an Exacto knife with a little drill bit set into it. You just physically rotate it back and forth by hand. It's so small, you can get it close and parallel with the soundboard. If you're not an experienced bridge-hole-driller, the real advantage is that you have plenty of time to recognize and correct your aim as you go.

Chris
 
Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A.
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 6/24/14, Matthew Daillie <[email-masked]> wrote:

 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Swan Neck Baroque Lute for sale
 To: "John Lenti" <[email-masked]>
 Cc: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>, "sterling price" <[email-masked]>, "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
 Date: Tuesday, June 24, 2014, 10:42 AM
 
 It is feasible to redrill the bridge
 holes but it's a job even (especially?) the best lute makers
 hate doing (the original holes are obviously done before the
 bridge is glued on).
 
 Best
 Matthew

 On 24 juin 2014, at 16:05, John Lenti <[email-masked]>
 wrote:
 
 > Whatever else happens, it's not a huge big deal to have
 the bridge re-drilled, or to get a new nut. If bridge or nut
 spacing is the one thing you don't like about an instrument,
 fix it. I had John Rollins re-drill my baroque lute bridge
 and have never been happier. Some of the original holes are
 part of the new spacing, he plugged the others. I've seen
 other lutes the bridges of which look like Swiss cheese,
 which also seems not to have any deleterious effects. 
 > 
 > Sent from my Ouija board 
 > 
 >> On Jun 23, 2014, at 3:39 PM, "[email-masked]"
 <[email-masked]>
 wrote:
 >>>   The 157mm is based on the
 Edlinger AR969 drawing. I do have pretty big
 >>>   different scale lengths on 2
 different lutes is no problem for the left
 >>>   hand, but going between 2
 different right hand spacings is impossible
 >>>   I'm sorry Roman but that
 really is a very personal point of view. I
 >>>   find too wide and have played
 well set up lutes with bridge spacings of
 >>>   140 mm which are far more
 comfortable. Indeed, I don't believe that I
 >>>   have ever come across a
 13-course with such wide spacings as the ones
 >>>   obviously a major
 consideration: thumb out or thumb in (if one is still
 >>>   On 23 juin 2014, at 20:35,
 [1][email-masked]
 wrote:
 >>>> It is a common mistake to make ca.145mm
 bridges, assuming some
 >>>   mythical standard.
 >>>> 
 >>>> All these instruments eventually end up on
 the secondary market due
 >>>   to unplayability.
 >>>>> one can easily look for LUTEDUO on
 youtube to check if it is
 >>>   playable or not :)
 >>>>> V&A    4274-1856 
   155
 >>>>> HOFFMANN, J. C.     
   St.
 >>>>> 1744/8    Nurnberg 
   MI
 >>>>> 1732?    Vienna KHM 
   AR
 >>>>> 1755    Nurnberg   
 MIR
 >>>>>>>> For More information please
 contact Anna
 >>>>> Kowalska :
 >>>>>>>> 
 >>>>>>>> [8][email-masked]
 >>>>>>>> [9][email-masked]
 >>>>>>>> +48663354744
 >>>>>>>> www.luteduo.com
 >>>>>>>> 
 >>>>>>>> 
 >>>>>>>> 
 >>>>>>>> To get on or off this list
 see list
 >>>>> information at

---

From: Matthew Daillie <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 21:07:50 +0200

The difficulty comes from having to drill a new hole very close to an old one. Even if the latter is well plugged, the drill bit often finds its way back into the original hole. It is also tricky to make sure the bit comes out the other side exactly where you want it to (after all, we are talking about fractions of millimetres). Anyway, ask any reputable maker, it's not a job they enjoy doing (and I have had it done on a couple of my lutes). Some makers prefer to make a new bridge which can be glued on to the soundboard without it being removed, but others would only consider fitting a new bridge with the top off.

best

Matthew

---

From: Anton Birula <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 15:48:09 -0700

I am really surprised.... Having played londer than 23 years, I never had an instrument wider than 147 which I play. Everyone who played my lutes would say that it is a bit widish.... Also as far as  I know, Hoppy Smith, Nigel North, Konrad Junghanel, Toyohiko Satoh, Jacob Lindberg and many others have lutes narrower than 147. It is really remarkable to hear that people have such wide spacing around. What about late Weiss Suites from Dresden manuscript Nr  23,24, 25, 30? How do these work on that spacings? 

Best wishes, AB

 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Swan Neck Baroque Lute for sale
 To: "Christopher Wilke" <[email-masked]>
 Cc: "John Lenti" <[email-masked]>, "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>, "sterling price" <[email-masked]>, "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
 Date: Tuesday, June 24, 2014, 9:07 PM
 
 The difficulty comes from having to
 drill a new hole very close to an old one. Even if the
 latter is well plugged, the drill bit often finds its way
 back into the original hole. It is also tricky to make sure
 the bit comes out the other side exactly where you want it
 to (after all, we are talking about fractions of
 millimetres). Anyway, ask any reputable maker, it's not a
 job they enjoy doing (and I have had it done on a couple of
 my lutes). Some makers prefer to make a new bridge which can
 be glued on to the soundboard without it being removed, but
 others would only consider fitting a new bridge with the top
 off.
 
 best
 
 Matthew
 
 On 24 juin 2014, at 18:26, Christopher Wilke <[email-masked]>
 wrote:
 
 > Nothing difficult about it at all. I've drilled a few
 holes myself on lutes and a baroque guitar and I have zero
 wood working skills. I used a little tiny hobby drill that I
 bought from Michael's hobby supply. It's basically just a
 short aluminum handle like an Exacto knife with a little
 drill bit set into it. You just physically rotate it back
 and forth by hand. It's so small, you can get it close and
 parallel with the soundboard. If you're not an experienced
 bridge-hole-driller, the real advantage is that you have
 plenty of time to recognize and correct your aim as you go.
 > Cc: "[email-masked]"
 <[email-masked]>,
 "sterling price" <[email-masked]>,
 "[email-masked]"
 <[email-masked]>
 >>> My hands are small, but I found 154mm to be
 the
 > absolute minimum I could deal with.
 >>> RT
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>>>    course lutes are 157mm for
 the
 > bridge spacing. I got very used to that
 >>>>    hands so that size is good
 for
 > me. I have found that going between 2
 >>>>> I won't be able to play on less than
 155mm
 > bridge width.
 >>>>>> Indeed this spacing is the most
 usual
 > today. I do not really know
 >>>>>> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Swan
 Neck
 > Baroque Lute for sale
 >>>>>> The variation in historical models
 is
 > very wide.
 >>>>>> Players should choose for their
 own
 > comfort.
 >>>>>> BURKHOLZER, Hanns   
 1596
 >>>>>> Vienna KHM    44 / 4056 /
 NE
 >>>>>> HOFFMANN,  J C   
 c.
 >>>>>> HOFFMANN,  J C   
 1720
 >>>>>> 169    Nurnberg 
 GNM
 >>>>>> HOFFMANN, J. C.   
 c.1720
    
 >>>>>> MALER,  Laux   
 1555
 >>>>>> SCHELLE, Sebastian   
 1721
 >>>>>> UNVERDORBEN, Marx   
 1607
 >>>>>> UNVERDORBEN, Marx   
 158?
 >>>>>> 1755   
 Nurnberg   
 > MIR
 >>>>>> 903
 >>>>>> 148
 >>>>>> WIDHALM, Leopold    1755
 >>>>>> Nurnberg    MIR 903
 >>>>>>        148
 >>>>>> JAUCH, Andreas    1734
 >>>>>> Copenhagen
 >>>>>> 
 >>>>>> 161
 >>>>>> JAUCK, Johannes    1734
 >>>>>> Vienna KHM
 >>>>>> 
 >>>>>> 165
 >>>>>> 
 >>>>>> Best wishes,
 >>>>>> 
 >>>>>> David
 >>>>>> 
 >>>>>> 
 >>>>>> 
 >>>>>> 
 >>>>>> At 14:01 +0200 23/6/14, Matthew
 Daillie
 > wrote:
 >>>>>>> I am not familiar with this
 lute
 > but 13-course
 >>>>>>> On 23 juin 2014, at 12:17,
 Roman
 > Turovsky
 >>>>>>>> My understanding is that
 this
 > lute has bridge
 >>>>>>>> spacing of 146mm, which
 renders
 > it pretty much
 >>>>>>>> On 6/21/2014 3:20 AM,
 Anton
 > Birula wrote:
 >>>>>>>>> Gundilowicz string
 length
 > 69/95 nice action
 >>>>>>>>> warm tone works well
 with
 > all sorts of
 >>>>>>>>> stringing, good for
 works
 > by Weiss and Bach as
 >>>>>>>>> Pictures can be seen
 here
 > (9 photos)
 >>>>>> To get on or off this list see
 list

---

From: sterling price <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 16:51:45 -0700

I think it depends on what your'e used to. My first 13 course had 157mm
   and that is what I learned on, and I try to only play lutes with that
   spacing. Once I had a lute for 6 months that was much smaller (say
   around 145 cm) and I couldn't stand it. I could never hit the correct
   bass notes. I know Barto uses 155cm. I tend to favor lutes of the
   Edlinger school which tend to be bigger I think than Hoffman and
   Schelle lutes. I also prefer lutes with a longer string length like
   over 76 cm. I would love to try one of the 80cm 13 course lutes.
   Sterling
   On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 4:53 PM, Anton Birula
   <[email-masked]> wrote:
   I am really surprised.... Having played londer than 23 years, I never
   had an instrument wider than 147 which I play. Everyone who played my
   lutes would say that it is a bit widish.... Also as far as  I know,
   Hoppy Smith, Nigel North, Konrad Junghanel, Toyohiko Satoh, Jacob
   Lindberg and many others have lutes narrower than 147. It is really
   remarkable to hear that people have such wide spacing around. What
   about late Weiss Suites from Dresden manuscript Nr  23,24, 25, 30? How
   do these work on that spacings?
   Best wishes, AB
   --------------------------------------------
   On Tue, 6/24/14, Matthew Daillie <[1][email-masked]> wrote:
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Swan Neck Baroque Lute for sale
   To: "Christopher Wilke" <[2][email-masked]>
   Cc: "John Lenti" <[3][email-masked]>, "[4][email-masked]"
   <[5][email-masked]>, "sterling price"
   <[6][email-masked]>, "[7][email-masked]"
   <[8][email-masked]>
   Date: Tuesday, June 24, 2014, 9:07 PM
   The difficulty comes from having to
   drill a new hole very close to an old one. Even if the
   latter is well plugged, the drill bit often finds its way
   back into the original hole. It is also tricky to make sure
   the bit comes out the other side exactly where you want it
   to (after all, we are talking about fractions of
   millimetres). Anyway, ask any reputable maker, it's not a
   job they enjoy doing (and I have had it done on a couple of
   my lutes). Some makers prefer to make a new bridge which can
   be glued on to the soundboard without it being removed, but
   others would only consider fitting a new bridge with the top
   off.
   best
   Matthew
   On 24 juin 2014, at 18:26, Christopher Wilke
   <[9][email-masked]>
   > On Tue, 6/24/14, Matthew Daillie <[10][email-masked]>
   wrote:
   > To: "John Lenti" <[11][email-masked]>
   > Cc: "[12][email-masked]"
   <[13][email-masked]>,
   "sterling price" <[14][email-masked]>,
   "[15][email-masked]"
   <[16][email-masked]>
   > On 24 juin 2014, at 16:05, John Lenti <[17][email-masked]>
   > wrote:
   >
   >>> On Jun 23, 2014, at 3:39 PM, "[18][email-masked]"
   > <[19][email-masked]>
   > wrote:
   >>>
   the
   the
   for
   >>>>    <[20][email-masked]>
   > wrote:
   >>>>    I'm sorry Roman but that
   > [1][21][email-masked]
   > wrote:
   155mm
   >>>>    <[2][22][email-masked]>
   > wrote:
   >>>>>
   >>>>>> Thanks David:))))))
   usual
   >>>>>> On Mon, 6/23/14, David Van Edwards
   > <[3][23][email-masked]>
   >>>>    wrote:
   >>>>>>
   Neck
   > Baroque Lute for sale
   >>>>>> To: "Matthew Daillie" <[4][24][email-masked]>
   >>>>>> Cc: [5][25][email-masked]
   is
   own
   1596
   NE
   c.
   1720
   GNM
   c.1720

   1555
   1721
   1607
   158?
   Nurnberg
   Daillie
   lute
   Roman
   > Turovsky
   >>>>    <[6][26][email-masked]>
   >>>>>> wrote:
   >>>>>>>
   >>>>>>>> Caveat emptor.
   >>>>>>>> My understanding is that
   this
   renders
   Anton
   length
   with
   works
   here
   > (9 photos)
   [7][27]https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbidx9657364401930&
   id31
   >>>>    01590724180
   >>>>>>>>>
   >>>>>>>>>
   >>>>>>>>> For More information
   please
   > contact Anna
   >>>>>> Kowalska :
   >>>>>>>>>
   >>>>>>>>> [8][28][email-masked]
   >>>>>>>>> [9][29][email-masked]
   >>>>>>>>> +48663354744
   >>>>>>>>> www.luteduo.com
   >>>>>>>>>
   >>>>>>>>>
   >>>>>>>>>
   >>>>>>>>> To get on or off this
   list
   > see list
   >>>>>> information at
   >>>>>>>>>
   [10][30]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>>>>> Website: [11][31]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk
   >>>>>>
   >>>>>>
   >>>>>>
   >>>>>>
   >>>>>>
   >>>>>>
   >>>>>>
   list
   > information at
   >>>>>> [12][32]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>    --
   >>>>
   >>>> References
   >>>>
   >>>>    1. mailto:[33][email-masked]
   >>>>    2. mailto:[34][email-masked]
   >>>>    3. mailto:[35][email-masked]
   >>>>    4. mailto:[36][email-masked]
   >>>>    5. mailto:[37][email-masked]
   >>>>    6. mailto:[38][email-masked]
   >>>>    7.
   [39]https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbidx9657364401930&id3
   101590724180
   >>>>    8. mailto:[40][email-masked]
   >>>>    9. mailto:[41][email-masked]
   >>>>   10. [42]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>>>   11. [43]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/
   >>>>   12. [44]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>>
   >>>
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > [45]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]
   2. mailto:[email-masked]
   3. mailto:[email-masked]
   4. mailto:[email-masked]
   5. mailto:[email-masked]
   6. mailto:[email-masked]
   7. mailto:[email-masked]
   8. mailto:[email-masked]
   9. mailto:[email-masked]
  10. mailto:[email-masked]
  11. mailto:[email-masked]
  12. mailto:[email-masked]
  13. mailto:[email-masked]
  14. mailto:[email-masked]
  15. mailto:[email-masked]
  16. mailto:[email-masked]
  17. mailto:[email-masked]
  18. mailto:[email-masked]
  19. mailto:[email-masked]
  20. mailto:[email-masked]
  21. mailto:[email-masked]
  22. mailto:[email-masked]
  23. mailto:[email-masked]
  24. mailto:[email-masked]
  25. mailto:[email-masked]
  26. mailto:[email-masked]
  27. https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbidx9657364401930&id31
  28. mailto:[email-masked]
  29. mailto:[email-masked]
  30. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  31. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/
  32. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  33. mailto:[email-masked]
  34. mailto:[email-masked]
  35. mailto:[email-masked]
  36. mailto:[email-masked]
  37. mailto:[email-masked]
  38. mailto:[email-masked]
  39. https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbidx9657364401930&id3101590724180
  40. mailto:[email-masked]
  41. mailto:[email-masked]
  42. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  43. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/
  44. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  45. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: sterling price <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 16:54:15 -0700

On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 5:51 PM, sterling price
   <[email-masked]> wrote:
   the
   the
   for
   155mm
   usual
   Neck
   is
   own
   1596
   NE
   c.
   1720
   GNM
   c.1720

   1555
   1721
   1607
   158?
   Nurnberg
   Daillie
   lute
   Roman
   this
   renders
   Anton
   length
   with
   works
   here
   list

   --

References

---

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 22:14:43 -0400

I think people who play with nails can get some mileage out of narrow 
spacing, but flesh players  need to be in the 155mm vicinity.
RT

---

From: Matthew Daillie <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 09:33:41 +0200

I have never played the lute with nails and know a lot of other lutenists who definitely don't play with nails either and the widest 13-course bridge spacing they were using was around 150 mm. Maybe things are different in the States but really don't believe there are many players here in Europe using such wide spacings.
Anyway, everyone to his own but to discourage people from buying a lute by claiming that a bridge spacing of 147 mm is unplayable sounds totally unjustified to me. I'm beginning to wonder whether this discussion isn't just another one of Roman's pranks!
Best
Matthew

> On Jun 25, 2014, at 4:14, "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> I think people who play with nails can get some mileage out of narrow spacing, but flesh players  need to be in the 155mm vicinity.
> RT
> 
> 
>

---

From: Mathias Rösel <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 12:49:30 +0200

May I weigh in from another angle. Before Wolfgang Emmerich was going to
build the angélique for me, we discussed issues of spacing at the bridge,
also taking into account the surviving instruments. Mind you, it comprises
17 courses. None of the bridges of my lutes is wider than 14.9 cm, and
that's what I thought (and still think) would fit best for my right hand. I
want to be able to strike the 1st and 17th courses ensemble without
overstretching my hand (Eugen Dombois springs to mind). So there had to be a
solution within this scope. Wolfgang distributed the bass courses beneath
the 10th course in a narrowing spacing, and that did the trick.

Mathias

> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of
> Matthew Daillie
> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 9:34 AM
> To: [email-masked]
> Cc: sterling price; Anton Birula; [email-masked]
> I have never played the lute with nails and know a lot of other lutenists
who definitely
> don't play with nails either and the widest 13-course bridge spacing they
were using
> was around 150 mm. Maybe things are different in the States but really
don't believe
> there are many players here in Europe using such wide spacings.
> Anyway, everyone to his own but to discourage people from buying a lute by
claiming
> that a bridge spacing of 147 mm is unplayable sounds totally unjustified
to me. I'm
> beginning to wonder whether this discussion isn't just another one of
Roman's
> pranks!
spacing, but
> flesh players  need to be in the 155mm vicinity.
> > RT
> >
> >
> >
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-
> admin/index.html

---

From: Matthew Daillie <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 14:03:59 +0200

There is another aspect to this which the lute makers would be far more competent to comment on, and that is the fact that a wider bridge must to an extent determine the type of body to be chosen for the lute and require adjustments to be made to the barring so that the soundboard still resonates freely. I suppose an Unverdorben or Burkholtzer body would be more accommodating for a wider bridge than say a Frei or a Weigert.

best

Matthew

---

From: "Louis Aull" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 08:31:06 -0400

Mathew,

You are talking about a 10mm difference here, less than half an inch. This
would affect only the smaller lutes running out of soundboard on the bass
course side.

Lou Aull

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf
Of Matthew Daillie
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 8:04 AM
To: Mathias Rösel
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Swan Neck Baroque Lute for sale

There is another aspect to this which the lute makers would be far more
competent to comment on, and that is the fact that a wider bridge must to an
extent determine the type of body to be chosen for the lute and require
adjustments to be made to the barring so that the soundboard still resonates
freely. I suppose an Unverdorben or Burkholtzer body would be more
accommodating for a wider bridge than say a Frei or a Weigert.

best

Matthew

On 25 juin 2014, at 12:49, Mathias Rösel <[email-masked]> wrote:

> May I weigh in from another angle. Before Wolfgang Emmerich was going 
> to build the angélique for me, we discussed issues of spacing at the 
> bridge, also taking into account the surviving instruments. Mind you, 
> it comprises
> that's what I thought (and still think) would fit best for my right 
> hand. I want to be able to strike the 1st and 17th courses ensemble 
> without overstretching my hand (Eugen Dombois springs to mind). So 
> there had to be a solution within this scope. Wolfgang distributed the 
> bass courses beneath the 10th course in a narrowing spacing, and that did
the trick.
>>> On Jun 25, 2014, at 4:14, "[email-masked]" 
>>> <[email-masked]>
> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>   had an instrument wider than 147 which I play. Everyone who 
>>>> played
> my

---

From: Matthew Daillie <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 14:39:26 +0200

In my experience, 1cm difference in bridge width is more than enough to entail consequences for how a maker sets up a neck, etc.

---

From: Roman Turovsky <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 09:42:09 -0400

No problem for Bob Barto apparently.
RT

---

From: Roman Turovsky <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 09:46:35 -0400

I distinctly remember the sense of liberation experiences by Guy 
Marchand in 1987 upon gaining a centimeter of bridge spacing on his 13c!
RT

On 6/24/2014 10:14 PM, [email-masked] wrote:
>> played my

---

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 09:51:20 -0400

I think the remarkable state of preservation of narrow spaced lutes was 
determined by their limited playability and/or dainty clientele that 
owned them originally.
RT

---

From: Mark Seifert <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 06:58:37 -0700

Comment from the dilettante peanut gallery:
   Not being a luthier and perhaps just the opposite (I'm too impatient!)
   I chose to redrill some 7-11th bass holes trying first a hand drill.
   That took for bloody ever for each one, the density of the wood being
   extraordinary, and the angle of approach worse than awkward.
   Later,  arranged an electric drill solution which was dangerous, but a
   lot quicker, but both bridge procedures were a real pain to perform.
   Drilling strap peg holes is a heck of a lot easier, but it takes a
   little mental/emotional readjustment to assault a precious lute so
   savagely, with sawdust flying around.
   Mark Seifert
   On Wednesday, June 25, 2014 6:43 AM, Roman Turovsky
   <[email-masked]> wrote:

   >  Cc: "John Lenti" <[3][email-masked]>,
   "[4][email-masked]" <[5][email-masked]>, "sterling price"
   <[6][email-masked]>, "[7][email-masked]"
   <[8][email-masked]>
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

  20. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html