Subject: Re: Johann Christian Hoffmann, 14 course swan-neck lute in Leipzig

From: Luca Manassero <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 12:38:25 +0100

Thank you very much for all these very valuable infos, David!
   Besides the abnormally deep bowl (which evidently was a problem for
   Herrn Hoffmann too), I wonder why a 14-course lute.
   1. As far as I know this is then an "unicum": no other 14-course
   (German baroque) lute exists.
   2. It doesn't seem to be a German Theorbo (I mean the one with the
   first course in d), otherwise it would have a 14th course in "FF" -
   even lower than the 14th course of an Italian chitarrone (GG) and
   possibly not very resonant on that string length, even with such a deep
   bowl.
   3. As Robert Grossman in his dissertation on the Bach BWV 995 recalls,
   this could be a sort of proof that lutes extending to the contra-G
   existed, but in that case why is this an unicum?
   And why J. S. Bach would have prepared his "Pièces à Mr. Schouster"
   (apparently an editor, possibly preparing a printed edition) with a
   lute extension in mind that was very rare?
   Judging about the ample literature dedicated to this "riddle", it looks
   like it still is an open issue...
   Luca
   ---- On lun, 12 feb 2018 22:57:26 +0100 David Van Edwards
   <[email-masked]> wrote ----

   I measured it many years ago.
   handwritten label: Joh: Christ: Hoffmann //
   Königl. Poln: und Churfl. // Sächs. Jnstrument //
   und Lautenmacher. // Leipzig, 1720. //. plus a
   repair label by Hoffmann dated 1732 Therefore
   conceivable that the swan neck was added then,
   but Hoffmann is usually specific about his
   modifications with labels saying renoviert or
   rebarirt.
   14 Courses 2 x 1, 6 x 2 + 6 x 2 @777mm and 1159mm
   13 ribs of birdseye maple with 1mm ebony strips between
   Triple rose diameters 63 & 75 332mm from the bottom.
   Unsually deep body. Pegbox decorated with
   carvings at the sides and the rear. Present belly
   by Hans Jordan of Markneukirchen in 1953; but
   based on the original which still survives in a
   cardboard box in the museum.
   A huge German baroque lute with very beautifully
   carved pegbox, fits Baron's description of a
   "deep sack like shape" which he disliked..
   According to Hans Jordan's notes there used to be
   another handwritten label, now missing, which
   read:
   �Dieser Corpus wurde von mir auf inständiges
   Begehren des Herrn Lic. Warlitzen als erstem Besitzer
   des Instrumentes so groß und hoch verfertigt."
   "Upon the urgent request of Mr. Lic[entiat] Warlitz as the first
   owner of this instrument, I have made its body so large
   and high."
   Better pictures and some details on the MIMO site
   [1]http://www.mimo-international.com/MIMO/doc/IFD/OAI_ULEI_M0000504
   The museum have a drawing.
   Best wishes,
   David
   At 22:18 +0100 12/2/18, Mathias Rösel wrote:
   >In the video, Sven tells the kid that it is a lute built in 1727.
   >
   >Mathias
   >
   >
   >
   >-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
   >Von: [2][email-masked]
   [mailto:[3][email-masked]] Im Auftrag
   >von Luca Manassero
   >Gesendet: Montag, 12. Februar 2018 19:07
   >An: baroque-lute
   >Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Johann Christian Hoffman n, 14 course
   swan-neck lute
   >in Leipzing
   >
   > Dear common wisdom,
   > a couple of years ago I stumbled upon the Leipzig Museum website,
   > planned to visit their Hoffman exhibition (but had to pass on it,
   > unfortunately) - then one day realized that the pictured Hoffmann
   > swan-neck lute they recently acquired (2012, says the YouTube video)
   > mounts 14 courses: 8 fretted and 6 at the second pegbox (2x1, 6x2,
   > 6x2).
   > See [1][4]http://mfm.uni-leipzig.de/dt/Forschung/hoffmannn.php: it's
   the
   > first instrument pictured under Johann Christian Hoffmann' section on
   > the page.
   > It's a really strange instrument with an incredibly deep body (it
   must
   > be uneasy to hold, or at least it looks so).
   > I'm sure the book about Hoffmann they sell
   >
   ([2][5]http://www.hofmeister-musikverlag.com/martin-und-johann-christia
   n-h
   > offmann.html) has all the measures about that instrument, but that
   book
   > is really kind of expensive. The Museum's website doesn't talk about
   > string length and date on this lute (I do read German and couldn't
   find
   > the infos anywhere on the website)
   > The YouTube video on the same page shows a German lutenist (Sven
   > Schwannberger, I think) playing a swan-neck lute, which is of course
   > not the original Hoffmann lute, as it shows 13 courses, as usual.
   > Anybody out there who has more details about it?
   > Thanks a lot,
   > Luca
   >
   > --
   >
   >References
   >
   > 1. [6]http://mfm.uni-leipzig.de/dt/Forschung/hoffmannn.php
   > 2.
   >[7]http://www.hofmeister-musikverlag.com/martin-und-johann-christian-h
   offmann.h
   >tml
   >
   >
   >To get on or off this list see list information at
   >[8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --
   The Smokehouse,
   6 Whitwell Road,
   Norwich, NR1 4HB
   England.
   Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
   Website: [9]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

   --

References

   1. http://www.mimo-international.com/MIMO/doc/IFD/OAI_ULEI_M0000504
   2. mailto:[email-masked]
   3. mailto:[email-masked]
   4. http://mfm.uni-leipzig.de/dt/Forschung/hoffmannn.php
   5. http://www.hofmeister-musikverlag.com/martin-und-johann-christian-h
   6. http://mfm.uni-leipzig.de/dt/Forschung/hoffmannn.php
   7. http://www.hofmeister-musikverlag.com/martin-und-johann-christian-hoffmann.h
   8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   9. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/

---

From: howard posner <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 22:30:38 -0800

> On Feb 13, 2018, at 3:38 AM, Luca Manassero <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 

Because all the other 14-course lutes were lost in fires, or eaten by termites, or rotted in damp basements, or, if they were built like the Hoffman instrument we’ve been talking about, were converted into soup kettles or small boats?

We all know that surviving lutes are a fossil record—a tiny remnant of the instruments that were built and played in their day—but we constantly forget it and fall into the trap of assuming that what survives in that record is an indication of the numbers that existed three centuries ago.  It’s possible that there was only one 14-course German baroque ever, but far more likely that there were others that have perished over time.

---

From: David Van Edwards <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 09:25:50 +0000

Dear Howard,

   You are absolutely right, we need constantly to remember that.

   At the conclusion of a piece I wrote about the timber trade for
   lutemakers I put the following totally unscientific guesstimate. This
   is in the context of just 826 surviving lutes of all periods including
   a lot of late mandoras and baroque lutes which fall outside my
   guesstimate.

   The numbers of lutes produced must have been quite staggering when we
   consider that just a one day snapshot of Laux Maler's workshop shows
   over a thousand lutes and a similar snapshot shows 376 Moises
   Tiefembruker lutes.  And these are only two of dozens of workshops
   producing lutes for at least 150 years. One would have to make far too
   many assumptions to calculate anything like a reliable figure. But if I
   just offer a totally unreliable 'back of envelope' calculation using
   fairly conservative figures of 25 workshops producing 300 lutes per
   year over 150 years that makes 1,125,000 lutes. The same proportion of
   yew lutes as have survived gives 292,207 yew lutes with, say 25 ribs,
   that makes well over 7 million yew lute ribs.

   The depredations of the arms trade and the lutemakers mean that there
   are now no significant stands of yew in the whole of Europe and it is a
   protected species over much of the continent.

   Best wishes,

   David

     >   existed, but in that case why is this an unicum?
     Because all the other 14-course lutes were lost in fires, or eaten
     by termites, or rotted in damp basements, or, if they were built
     like the Hoffman instrument we've been talking about, were converted
     into soup kettles or small boats?
     We all know that surviving lutes are a fossil record-a tiny remnant
     of the instruments that were built and played in their day-but we
     constantly forget it and fall into the trap of assuming that what
     survives in that record is an indication of the numbers that existed
     three centuries ago.  It's possible that there was only one
     14-course German baroque ever, but far more likely that there were
     others that have perished over time.
     To get on or off this list see list information at
     http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

   The Smokehouse,
   6 Whitwell Road,
   Norwich,  NR1 4HB
   England.

   Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
   Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

   --

---

From: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 10:45:53 +0000 (UTC)

Dear David,
   Yes indeed.  And to add to your guesstimate about lutes, the number of
   extant mandoras/gallicons is only about 70 made between 1688 and 1780
   (most are listed Dieter Kirsch 'La mandora au XVIII siecle'). Although
   their geographical area of production (and common use) was quite
   limited, I similarly guess that this represents but a proportion of all
   those made.
   However I gain the impression (such as from the day's snapshot of
   Maler's workshop you mention) that the earlier workshops run by Maler
   et al were quite large industrial concerns, whereas later makers like J
   C Hoffmann seem to have worked much on their own (perhaps buying in a
   few parts) and so, even if there were still quite a lot of makers in
   this later period, perhaps lute (and mandora) production was not then
   as staggeringly enormous as it was at its peak in the sixteenth
   century.
   Are you aware of any 'snapshots' about these later makers and their
   stocks?
   Martyn
     __________________________________________________________________

   From: David Van Edwards <[email-masked]>
   To: howard posner <[email-masked]>
   Cc: baroque-lute <[email-masked]>
   Sent: Thursday, 15 February 2018, 9:27
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Johann Christian Hoffmann, 14 course
   swan-neck lute in Leipzig
     Dear Howard,
     You are absolutely right, we need constantly to remember that.
     At the conclusion of a piece I wrote about the timber trade for
     lutemakers I put the following totally unscientific guesstimate. This
     is in the context of just 826 surviving lutes of all periods
   including
     a lot of late mandoras and baroque lutes which fall outside my
     guesstimate.
     The numbers of lutes produced must have been quite staggering when we
     consider that just a one day snapshot of Laux Maler's workshop shows
     over a thousand lutes and a similar snapshot shows 376 Moises
     Tiefembruker lutes.  And these are only two of dozens of workshops
     producing lutes for at least 150 years. One would have to make far
   too
     many assumptions to calculate anything like a reliable figure. But if
   I
     just offer a totally unreliable 'back of envelope' calculation using
     fairly conservative figures of 25 workshops producing 300 lutes per
     year over 150 years that makes 1,125,000 lutes. The same proportion
   of
     yew lutes as have survived gives 292,207 yew lutes with, say 25 ribs,
     that makes well over 7 million yew lute ribs.
     The depredations of the arms trade and the lutemakers mean that there
     are now no significant stands of yew in the whole of Europe and it is
   a
     protected species over much of the continent.
     Best wishes,
     David
     At 22:30 -0800 14/2/18, howard posner wrote:
       > On Feb 13, 2018, at 3:38 AM, Luca Manassero
   <[1][email-masked]>
       Because all the other 14-course lutes were lost in fires, or eaten
       by termites, or rotted in damp basements, or, if they were built
       like the Hoffman instrument we've been talking about, were
   converted
       into soup kettles or small boats?
       We all know that surviving lutes are a fossil record-a tiny remnant
       of the instruments that were built and played in their day-but we
       constantly forget it and fall into the trap of assuming that what
       survives in that record is an indication of the numbers that
   existed
       three centuries ago.  It's possible that there was only one
       14-course German baroque ever, but far more likely that there were
       others that have perished over time.
       To get on or off this list see list information at
       [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --
     The Smokehouse,
     6 Whitwell Road,
     Norwich,  NR1 4HB
     England.
     Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
     Website: [3]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk
     --

   --

References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   3. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/