Subject: Denis Gaultier

From: "G. C." <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 20:19:41 +0100

When looking again at D.A. Smith's Weiss thesis of 1977, I look at the
   following passage: "Weiss's work unquestionably can stand beside the
   output of Francesco da Milano, John Dowland and Denis Gaultier as
   representing some of the finest music in the lute's literature." I
   wasn't aware that Denis had such a luminous star in the aechelon.
   G.

   --

---

From: Jean-Marie Poirier <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 20:32:34 +0100

He sure does even though he sort of hijacked a good part of his older cousin’s output ;-) !

Jean-Marie

> Le 2 déc. 2017 à 20:19, G. C. <[email-masked]> a écrit :
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: "G. C." <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 20:40:20 +0100

So did Denis pass on works of Ennemond as being his own, and not only
   transcribing them from vieil tone and getting huge credit from D. A.
   Smith 40 years ago for that?

   --

---

From: Jean-Marie Poirier <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 21:30:35 +0100

:-D !!!

> Le 2 déc. 2017 à 20:40, G. C. <[email-masked]> a écrit :
>

---

From: "G. C." <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 23:39:08 +0100

Claude Chauvel:
   We may also recall the anecdote told by burlesque D'Assoucy, in which
   old Gaultier was given a good thrashing by the people of his village
   who, "catching sight of the dusky face of this blackamoor" , mistook
   him for the werewolf... The man's appearance : a surly yet sensual
   fellow, independent-minded, even slightly misanthropic, conscious of
   his art and refusing any subservience, he was often caustic about his
   colleagues such as his cousin Denis whom he thought "fitt to goe along
   with a buriall".
   ... However a hundred or so of his [Ennemond's] pieces have survived -
   all of them written in the OLD TUNE and collected in several
   manuscripts from the early XVIIth century; ... it was not until 1672
   that fifteen of old Gaultier's best pieces were engraved in the Livre
   de Tablature compiled by his cousin Denis ; these pieces were to figure
   high up among the best ones in many collections of German origin well
   into the XVIIIth century.
   [1988] CD Booklet Astree E 8703

   On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier
   <[1][email-masked]> wrote:

   :-D !!!
   > Le 2 dÃ©c. 2017 Ã  20:40, G. C. <[2][email-masked]> a Ã©crit :
   >
   > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]
   2. mailto:[email-masked]
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: Jean-Marie Poirier <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 06:43:24 +0100

[1]https://youtu.be/-TNndX7KcUs ;-)

   Jean-Marie

   Le 2 déc. 2017 à 23:39, G. C. <[2][email-masked]> a écrit :

     Claude Chauvel:
     We may also recall the anecdote told by burlesque D'Assoucy, in which
     old Gaultier was given a good thrashing by the people of his village
     who, "catching sight of the dusky face of this blackamoor" , mistook
     him for the werewolf... The man's appearance : a surly yet sensual
     fellow, independent-minded, even slightly misanthropic, conscious of
     his art and refusing any subservience, he was often caustic about his
     colleagues such as his cousin Denis whom he thought "fitt to goe
   along
     with a buriall".
     ... However a hundred or so of his [Ennemond's] pieces have survived
   -
     all of them written in the OLD TUNE and collected in several
     manuscripts from the early XVIIth century; ... it was not until 1672
     that fifteen of old Gaultier's best pieces were engraved in the Livre
     de Tablature compiled by his cousin Denis ; these pieces were to
   figure
     high up among the best ones in many collections of German origin well
     into the XVIIIth century.
     [1988] CD Booklet Astree E 8703
     On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier
     <[1][3][email-masked]> wrote:
     :-D !!!

     Le 2 dÃ �c. 2017 Ã  20:40, G. C. <[2][4][email-masked]> a Ã
     �crit :

       So did Denis pass on works of Ennemond as being his own, and not

     only

       transcribing them from vieil tone and getting huge credit from D.

     A.

       --

     [3][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

     --
   References
     1. [6]mailto:[email-masked]
     2. [7]mailto:[email-masked]
     3. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. https://youtu.be/-TNndX7KcUs
   2. mailto:[email-masked]
   3. mailto:[email-masked]
   4. mailto:[email-masked]
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. mailto:[email-masked]
   7. mailto:[email-masked]
   8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: "G. C." <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 09:31:24 +0100

Excellent! Thank you very much.
   G.
   On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 6:43 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier
   <[1][email-masked]> wrote:
      [1][2]https://youtu.be/-TNndX7KcUs ;-)

   --

References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]
   2. https://youtu.be/-TNndX7KcUs

---

From: Francois-Pierre Goy <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 10:39:57 +0100

Hi,

   Â

   I don't think one can accuse Denis of having "hijacked" or "passed on
   works by Ennemond as his own". On the contrary, he was careful to
   distinguish their respective works in the Livre de tablature (for which
   he took a privilege as early as December 1669
   ([1]http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b90632544/f89.item), but which
   appeared only after his death. Most confusions in the attributions are
   due to people who copied the pieces into their lute books, often years
   after their composition, and also that the editors of the CNRS Vieux
   Gaultier volume included in their edition everything they found
   attributed to him at least once, without questioning the accurateness
   of the attributions.

   Â

   As to Ennemond's pieces being transcribed from earlier tunings, this
   undoubtedly occurred for one of them, but not necessarily for many
   more. When I studied the repertoire in accords nouveaux, almost thirty
   years ago, I was surprised to find how few pieces had versions in both
   old tuning and accords nouveaux or in both accords nouveaux and d-minor
   tuning. Of course, many sources have been lost, but none of those which
   has reappeared since has contradicted this notion. Add to this that the
   d-minor tuning must have appeared shortly before 1638, when the first
   pieces on this tuning appeared, and that Ennemond lived until 1651 and
   had thus time to compose in this tuning.

   Â

   I would understand Smith's sentence, as he speaks of "fine" music, as
   expressing rather his personal appreciation. But there are ways to know
   how Denis Gaultier was appreciated by his contemporaries.
   1) Both Gaultiers are the only identified composers whose works were
   copied, in addition to their own works, by three lutenists-composers
   whose hand may be identified with confidence in lute manuscripts:
   Charles Mouton, Henry de Launay and Pierre Dubut le fils (the latter
   has also copied works by his father) ; Julien Blouin, by whom only a
   few works are known and who on the contrary copied works by a greater
   number of composers, made a complete copy of the "Pieces de luth" in
   one of his manuscripts, adding to them pieces by various other
   composers.
   2) But the manuscript "La rhÃ©torique des dieux" has been designed as
   "un assemblage des plus belles piÃ¨ces de luth de l'illustre Denis
   Gaultier", even if at least one piece by Ennemond seems to have slipped
   among them (there is no proof that Denis had any role in the choice of
   the pieces).

   3) Likewise, Pierre Baudouin de Montarcis (the one mentioned in the
   preface of the Livre de tablature) refers to Denis as "l'OrfÃ©e de
   notre siecle", but ignores Ennemond (see
   [2]http://msl.cat/revista/56%20Goy.pdf, pp. 87-92).
   4) Three tombeaux were dedicated to Denis in addition to the one he
   wrote for himself: by Jacques Gallot, Charles Mouton and a lost one by
   his pupil Marianne Plantier. No tombeau appears to have been dedicated
   to Old Gaultier.

   Â

   Thus, it would seem that on one hand, the output of Ennemond and Denis
   may have been more or less considered as a whole by 17th-century
   lutenists, as their pieces are often mingled in the manuscripts, often
   without a clear attribution to either of them, or with conflicting
   attributions, and on the other hand, there really was a high regard for
   Denis in the second half of the century, maybe from people who knew him
   and had heard him in person.

   Â

   Best wishes,

   Â

   FranÃ§ois-Pierre Goy

   Â

   Â

   02.12.2017, 23:39, "G. C." :

     Â Â Â Claude Chauvel:
     Â Â Â We may also recall the anecdote told by burlesque D'Assoucy,
     in which
     Â Â Â old Gaultier was given a good thrashing by the people of his
     village
     Â Â Â who, "catching sight of the dusky face of this blackamoor" ,
     mistook
     Â Â Â him for the werewolf... The man's appearance : a surly yet
     sensual
     Â Â Â fellow, independent-minded, even slightly misanthropic,
     conscious of
     Â Â Â his art and refusing any subservience, he was often caustic
     about his
     Â Â Â colleagues such as his cousin Denis whom he thought "fitt to
     goe along
     Â Â Â with a buriall".
     Â Â Â ... However a hundred or so of his [Ennemond's] pieces have
     survived -
     Â Â Â all of them written in the OLD TUNE and collected in several
     Â Â Â manuscripts from the early XVIIth century; ... it was not
     until 1672
     Â Â Â that fifteen of old Gaultier's best pieces were engraved in
     the Livre
     Â Â Â de Tablature compiled by his cousin Denis ; these pieces were
     to figure
     Â Â Â high up among the best ones in many collections of German
     origin well
     Â Â Â into the XVIIIth century.
     Â Â Â [1988] CD Booklet Astree E 8703
     Â Â Â On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier
     Â Â Â
     Â Â Â :-D !!!
     Â Â Â > Le 2 dÃÂ©c. 2017 Ã 20:40, G. C. a ÃÂ©crit :
     Â Â Â >
     Â Â Â > So did Denis pass on works of Ennemond as being his own, and
     not
     Â Â Â only
     Â Â Â > transcribing them from vieil tone and getting huge credit
     from D.
     Â Â Â A.
     Â Â Â > Smith 40 years ago for that?
     Â Â Â >
     Â Â Â > --
     Â Â Â >
     Â Â Â >

References

   1. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b90632544/f89.item)
   2. http://msl.cat/revista/56 Goy.pdf

---

From: "G. C." <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:17:24 +0100

Dear FranÃ§ois-Pierre,
   thank you very much for the learned clarification. Now, if I read you
   correctly, you say there is little hope in finding a substantial number
   of pieces by Ennemond in vieil ton. This firmly contradicts what
   Jean-Marie Poirier has said about this only recently with his fine
   article in The Lute vol. 54, "RenÃ©, Robert, Ennemond, Charles and the
   Other, Shadows and lights: the French lutenists of the first half of
   the seventeenth century" where he list a considerable number of
   manuscripts that might contain pieces by Vieux Gaultier in vieil ton.
   Not wishing to start a confrontation, but it makes one a bit confused.
   BR
   G.

   --

---

From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:13:21 +0100

Hi to all,
Interesting point of view from François-Pierre Goy, which doesn't surprise me at all ;-) !
As Goran wrote, there is no place for a "confrontation" or anything of the sort, so let me simply underline what my intimate belief is :
there is quie a significant corpus of music in manuscripts in old tuning attributed to "Gaultier", whatever spelling they may have chosen at the time, 
and starting from this observation I started to ask mlyself serious questions about Old Gaultier's music in d minor tuning.
His (estimated) date of birth and known date of death, make him an almost exact contemporary of Robert Ballard who did not leave a single piece in d minor tuning,
and only a few pieces in a transitional tuning, included the 1631 anthology published by the royal printer Pierre Ballard, his brother.
In the article Goran refers to, I tried to put facts on my intuition, showing that the continued connection of Old Gaultir and the Queen Mother 
may be one reason why he was not represented in the Ballard editions, as Ballard was the officila riyal printer and Marie de Medicis, 
whose opposition to Richelieu eventually resulted in her exile, so that she was obviously not well regarded by the King and his entourage.
Gaultier's retirement in his native Dauphiné, after the Queen's death, is another argument pointing to his relative isolation and estrangement from the dominant 
currents in lute fashions whiich gradually led to the adoption of one of the transitional tunings, the d minor tuning, as the  new norm. 
Of course, I can be objected that the name Gautier could apply to different persons... Intuition and musical feeling can and will come to the rescue then, plus 
a few more objective facts. 
For instance, some people tend to attribute the Gaultier pieces in Cherbury to Jacques because he was a resident in England at the time.
This is a bit too fast and too simple in my opinion : Cherbury visited France twice and he was there when Jacques Gaultier murdered a gentleman and had to 
run away from the country to avoid a certain death penalty. Cherbury belonged to the aristocratic circles and was very critical of Gaultier's criminal act. 
It is difficult to imagine he would copy so many pieces in his manuscript by a man he despised openly... As Ennemeond was already in Paris, serving the 
Queen mother, at the time Cherbury was in Paris for the second time. It does not seem far fetched to think he had access to some of his music then and chose 
to copy that in his book.

Anyway, whatever the conclusions may be, I think this question about Vieux Gaultier, is worth asking and this period (first half of the century) is far from having  
delivered all its secrets !

Best wishes to all,

Jean-Marie Poirier

--------------
 
>   Ã‚
>   Ã‚
>   Ã‚
>   2) But the manuscript "La rhÃƒÂ©torique des dieux" has been designed as
>   "un assemblage des plus belles piÃƒÂ¨ces de luth de l'illustre Denis
>   preface of the Livre de tablature) refers to Denis as "l'OrfÃƒÂ©e de
>   Ã‚
>   Ã‚
>   Ã‚
>   FranÃƒÂ§ois-Pierre Goy
>   Ã‚
>   Ã‚
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Claude Chauvel:
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ We may also recall the anecdote told by burlesque D'Assoucy,
>     in which
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ old Gaultier was given a good thrashing by the people of his
>     village
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ who, "catching sight of the dusky face of this blackamoor" ,
>     mistook
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ him for the werewolf... The man's appearance : a surly yet
>     sensual
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ fellow, independent-minded, even slightly misanthropic,
>     conscious of
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ his art and refusing any subservience, he was often caustic
>     about his
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ colleagues such as his cousin Denis whom he thought "fitt to
>     goe along
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ with a buriall".
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ ... However a hundred or so of his [Ennemond's] pieces have
>     survived -
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ all of them written in the OLD TUNE and collected in several
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ manuscripts from the early XVIIth century; ... it was not
>     until 1672
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ that fifteen of old Gaultier's best pieces were engraved in
>     the Livre
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ de Tablature compiled by his cousin Denis ; these pieces were
>     to figure
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ high up among the best ones in many collections of German
>     origin well
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ into the XVIIIth century.
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ [1988] CD Booklet Astree E 8703
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ :-D !!!
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ > Le 2 dÃƒÃ‚Â©c. 2017 Ãƒ 20:40, G. C. a ÃƒÃ‚Â©crit :
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ >
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ > So did Denis pass on works of Ennemond as being his own, and
>     not
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ only
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ > transcribing them from vieil tone and getting huge credit
>     from D.
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ A.
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ > Smith 40 years ago for that?
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ >
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ > --
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ >
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ >
>
>References
>

---

From: Andreas Schlegel <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:55:54 +0100

Hello,

Different levels are now confused:

1. Ennemond lived during the times of the Vieil ton, the Accords nouveaux and the Nouvel accord ordinaire. 
We have many pieces which can be attributed to him in Vieil ton, only a few compositions in accords nouveaux which can doubtless attributed to him (but many could be written by him), and we have some works in the Nouvel accord ordinaire. But for all tunings we have many, many pieces attributed to a not specified Gaultier - and specially in the Nouvel accord ordinaire many contradictionary attributions by contemporary sources. 
The attribution is one of the questions which can only be solved if we compare carefully all versions in all sources. This work of comparing all versions is nearly done by François-Pierre and I hope that his splendid work will be published soon. But we have to leave the open questions as open questions, if there are no very string reasons to attribute a piece to a certain Gaultier.

2. Jean-Marie Poirier suggested in his „answer" to G.C.’s question „So did Denis could pass on works of Ennemond as being his own and not only transcribing them from vieil ton and getting huge credit from D.“, that this could be the case. 
This suggestion is the point which has to be refused. 
And François-Pierre Goy’s contribution focusses on that point, the question of transcriptions from one tuning to an other and on how Denis Gaultier was seen by contemporary persons.

Andreas

> Am 10.12.2017 um 12:13 schrieb Jean-Marie Poirier <[email-masked]>:
> 
> Hi to all,

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
[email-masked]

--

---

From: Jean-Marie Poirier <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:39:58 +0100

No Andreas I never suggested that Denis could pass his cousin's pieces
   as his own. My theory is that Denis could have transposed some of his
   cousin's pieces into d minor to have them published, acknowledging
   their authorship, to save them from being transmitted with faults, full
   stop!

   If you read my article in the bulletin of Société Française de Luth or
   in the Lute from the English Lute Society you will see what I mean ;-)!

   All the best,

   Jean-Marie

   Le 10 déc. 2017 à 12:55, Andreas Schlegel <[1][email-masked]> a
   écrit :

     Hello,

   1. Ennemond lived during the times of the Vieil ton, the Accords
   nouveaux and the Nouvel accord ordinaire.

   We have many pieces which can be attributed to him in Vieil ton, only a
   few compositions in accords nouveaux which can doubtless attributed to
   him (but many could be written by him), and we have some works in the
   Nouvel accord ordinaire. But for all tunings we have many, many pieces
   attributed to a not specified Gaultier - and specially in the Nouvel
   accord ordinaire many contradictionary attributions by contemporary
   sources.

   The attribution is one of the questions which can only be solved if we
   compare carefully all versions in all sources. This work of comparing
   all versions is nearly done by François-Pierre and I hope that his
   splendid work will be published soon. But we have to leave the open
   questions as open questions, if there are no very string reasons to
   attribute a piece to a certain Gaultier.

   2. Jean-Marie Poirier suggested in his „answer" to G.C.'s question „So
   did Denis could pass on works of Ennemond as being his own and not only
   transcribing them from vieil ton and getting huge credit from D.", that
   this could be the case.

   And François-Pierre Goy's contribution focusses on that point, the
   question of transcriptions from one tuning to an other and on how Denis
   Gaultier was seen by contemporary persons.

   Andreas

   Am 10.12.2017 um 12:13 schrieb Jean-Marie Poirier
   <[2][email-masked]>:

   Hi to all,
   Interesting point of view from François-Pierre Goy, which doesn't
   surprise me at all ;-) !
   As Goran wrote, there is no place for a "confrontation" or anything of
   the sort, so let me simply underline what my intimate belief is :
   there is quie a significant corpus of music in manuscripts in old
   tuning attributed to "Gaultier", whatever spelling they may have chosen
   at the time,
   and starting from this observation I started to ask mlyself serious
   questions about Old Gaultier's music in d minor tuning.
   His (estimated) date of birth and known date of death, make him an
   almost exact contemporary of Robert Ballard who did not leave a single
   piece in d minor tuning,
   and only a few pieces in a transitional tuning, included the 1631
   anthology published by the royal printer Pierre Ballard, his brother.
   In the article Goran refers to, I tried to put facts on my intuition,
   showing that the continued connection of Old Gaultir and the Queen
   Mother
   may be one reason why he was not represented in the Ballard editions,
   as Ballard was the officila riyal printer and Marie de Medicis,
   whose opposition to Richelieu eventually resulted in her exile, so that
   she was obviously not well regarded by the King and his entourage.
   Gaultier's retirement in his native Dauphiné, after the Queen's death,
   is another argument pointing to his relative isolation and estrangement
   from the dominant
   currents in lute fashions whiich gradually led to the adoption of one
   of the transitional tunings, the d minor tuning, as the  new norm.
   Of course, I can be objected that the name Gautier could apply to
   different persons... Intuition and musical feeling can and will come to
   the rescue then, plus
   a few more objective facts.
   For instance, some people tend to attribute the Gaultier pieces in
   Cherbury to Jacques because he was a resident in England at the time.
   This is a bit too fast and too simple in my opinion : Cherbury visited
   France twice and he was there when Jacques Gaultier murdered a
   gentleman and had to
   run away from the country to avoid a certain death penalty. Cherbury
   belonged to the aristocratic circles and was very critical of
   Gaultier's criminal act.
   It is difficult to imagine he would copy so many pieces in his
   manuscript by a man he despised openly... As Ennemeond was already in
   Paris, serving the
   Queen mother, at the time Cherbury was in Paris for the second time. It
   does not seem far fetched to think he had access to some of his music
   then and chose
   to copy that in his book.
   Anyway, whatever the conclusions may be, I think this question about
   Vieux Gaultier, is worth asking and this period (first half of the
   century) is far from having
   delivered all its secrets !
   Best wishes to all,
   Jean-Marie Poirier
   --------------

      Hi,
      Ã‚
      I don't think one can accuse Denis of having "hijacked" or "passed
     on
      works by Ennemond as his own". On the contrary, he was careful to
      distinguish their respective works in the Livre de tablature (for
     which
      he took a privilege as early as December 1669
      ([1][3]http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b90632544/f89.item),
     but which
      appeared only after his death. Most confusions in the attributions
     are
      due to people who copied the pieces into their lute books, often
     years
      after their composition, and also that the editors of the CNRS
     Vieux
      Gaultier volume included in their edition everything they found
      attributed to him at least once, without questioning the
     accurateness
      of the attributions.
      Ã‚
      As to Ennemond's pieces being transcribed from earlier tunings,
     this
      undoubtedly occurred for one of them, but not necessarily for many
      more. When I studied the repertoire in accords nouveaux, almost
     thirty
      years ago, I was surprised to find how few pieces had versions in
     both
      old tuning and accords nouveaux or in both accords nouveaux and
     d-minor
      tuning. Of course, many sources have been lost, but none of those
     which
      has reappeared since has contradicted this notion. Add to this that
     the
      d-minor tuning must have appeared shortly before 1638, when the
     first
      pieces on this tuning appeared, and that Ennemond lived until 1651
     and
      had thus time to compose in this tuning.
      Ã‚
      I would understand Smith's sentence, as he speaks of "fine" music,
     as
      expressing rather his personal appreciation. But there are ways to
     know
      how Denis Gaultier was appreciated by his contemporaries.
      1) Both Gaultiers are the only identified composers whose works
     were
      copied, in addition to their own works, by three
     lutenists-composers
      whose hand may be identified with confidence in lute manuscripts:
      Charles Mouton, Henry de Launay and Pierre Dubut le fils (the
     latter
      has also copied works by his father) ; Julien Blouin, by whom only
     a
      few works are known and who on the contrary copied works by a
     greater
      number of composers, made a complete copy of the "Pieces de luth"
     in
      one of his manuscripts, adding to them pieces by various other
      composers.
      2) But the manuscript "La rhÃƒÂ �torique des dieux" has been
     designed as
      "un assemblage des plus belles piÃƒÂ �ces de luth de l'illustre
     Denis
      Gaultier", even if at least one piece by Ennemond seems to have
     slipped
      among them (there is no proof that Denis had any role in the choice
     of
      the pieces).
      3) Likewise, Pierre Baudouin de Montarcis (the one mentioned in the
      preface of the Livre de tablature) refers to Denis as "l'OrfÃƒÂ �e
     de
      notre siecle", but ignores Ennemond (see
      [2][4]http://msl.cat/revista/56%20Goy.pdf, pp. 87-92).
      4) Three tombeaux were dedicated to Denis in addition to the one he
      wrote for himself: by Jacques Gallot, Charles Mouton and a lost one
     by
      his pupil Marianne Plantier. No tombeau appears to have been
     dedicated
      to Old Gaultier.
      Ã‚
      Thus, it would seem that on one hand, the output of Ennemond and
     Denis
      may have been more or less considered as a whole by 17th-century
      lutenists, as their pieces are often mingled in the manuscripts,
     often
      without a clear attribution to either of them, or with conflicting
      attributions, and on the other hand, there really was a high regard
     for
      Denis in the second half of the century, maybe from people who knew
     him
      and had heard him in person.
      Ã‚
      Best wishes,
      Ã‚
      FranÃƒÂ �ois-Pierre Goy
      Ã‚
      Ã‚
      02.12.2017, 23:39, "G. C." :
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Claude Chauvel:
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ We may also recall the anecdote told by burlesque
     D'Assoucy,
        in which
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ old Gaultier was given a good thrashing by the people of
     his
        village
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ who, "catching sight of the dusky face of this
     blackamoor" ,
        mistook
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ him for the werewolf... The man's appearance : a surly
     yet
        sensual
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ fellow, independent-minded, even slightly misanthropic,
        conscious of
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ his art and refusing any subservience, he was often
     caustic
        about his
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ colleagues such as his cousin Denis whom he thought
     "fitt to
        goe along
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ with a buriall".
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ ... However a hundred or so of his [Ennemond's] pieces
     have
        survived -
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ all of them written in the OLD TUNE and collected in
     several
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ manuscripts from the early XVIIth century; ... it was
     not
        until 1672
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ that fifteen of old Gaultier's best pieces were engraved
     in
        the Livre
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ de Tablature compiled by his cousin Denis ; these pieces
     were
        to figure
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ high up among the best ones in many collections of
     German
        origin well
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ into the XVIIIth century.
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ [1988] CD Booklet Astree E 8703
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ :-D !!!
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ > Le 2 dÃƒÃ‚Â �c. 2017 Ãƒ 20:40, G. C. a ÃƒÃ‚Â �crit :
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ >
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ > So did Denis pass on works of Ennemond as being his
     own, and
        not
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ only
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ > transcribing them from vieil tone and getting huge
     credit
        from D.
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ A.
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ > Smith 40 years ago for that?
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ >
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ > --
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ >
        Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ >
     References
      1. [5]http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b90632544/f89.item)
      2. [6]http://msl.cat/revista/56 Goy.pdf
     To get on or off this list see list information at
     [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   Andreas Schlegel
   Eckstr. 6
   CH-5737 Menziken
   Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
   Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
   [8][email-masked]

   --

References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]
   2. mailto:[email-masked]
   3. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b90632544/f89.item
   4. http://msl.cat/revista/56 Goy.pdf
   5. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b90632544/f89.item
   6. http://msl.cat/revista/56
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   8. mailto:[email-masked]

---

From: Francois-Pierre Goy <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 15:05:20 +0100

Â

   It seems you have misunderstood me, or that I haven't expressed myself
   clearly enough.

   Â

   I perfectly know that there are more than 50 pieces credited to
   "Gaultier" (variously spelt), which appear in printed and mostly
   manuscript sources since 1610 and that, in spite of the absence of
   first name, all or almost all of them may be credited to Ennemond
   without hesitation.

   Â

   I only said that I can claim to have examined in detail over the last
   thirty years most, if not all 17th-century sources containing French
   music in whatever tuning, and that I have always been struck by the
   fact that there were very few pieces had versions in both vieil ton and
   accords nouveaux, or in both accords nouveaux and d-minor tuning. It
   looks as if lutenists had generally preferred to compose new music
   directly in the newer tuning(s) rather than to adapt music in an
   earlier tuning to a newer, even if this sometimes happened.

   Â

   I know very well, however, that one courante by Vieux Gaultier exists
   in versions in vieil ton, accords nouveaux and d-minor tuning (the
   latter being the most widely spread, incidentally not found in the
   Livre de tablature).

   Â

   I simply meant that from the present state of sources I didn't think it
   likely that Denis had to transpose early pieces by his cousin in
   d-minor tuning, as nothing precludes that they were composed directly
   in this tuning (take for instance the Tombeau de Mesangeau, who died in
   1638, the year in which pieces in d-minor tuning were printed for the
   first time). Stylistically, too, the allemandes, sarabandes and
   canaries by Vieux Gaultier in the Livre de tablature would hardly have
   counterparts in vieil ton sources, or in very late ones, contemporary
   with newer tunings.

   Â

   Best wishes,

   Â

   FranÃ§ois-Pierre Goy

   Â

   Â

   10.12.2017, 11:17, "G. C.":

     Â Â Â Dear FranÃÂ§ois-Pierre,
     Â Â Â thank you very much for the learned clarification. Now, if I
     read you
     Â Â Â correctly, you say there is little hope in finding a
     substantial number
     Â Â Â of pieces by Ennemond in vieil ton. This firmly contradicts
     what
     Â Â Â Jean-Marie Poirier has said about this only recently with his
     fine
     Â Â Â article in The Lute vol. 54, "RenÃÂ©, Robert, Ennemond,
     Charles and the
     Â Â Â Other, Shadows and lights: the French lutenists of the first
     half of
     Â Â Â the seventeenth century" where he list a considerable number
     of
     Â Â Â manuscripts that might contain pieces by Vieux Gaultier in
     vieil ton.
     Â Â Â Not wishing to start a confrontation, but it makes one a bit
     confused.
     Â Â Â BR
     Â Â Â G.
     Â Â Â --
     To get on or off this list see list information at
     [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: "G. C." <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 15:17:19 +0100

I see! Thanks for clearing that up. So, I imagine not being alone in
   looking forward to a scholarly collection   / edition of those 50
   pieces, likely to be by Ennemond Gaultier in the old tuning.
   Best
   G.

   --

---

From: Rob MacKillop <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 14:24:40 +0000

Didn't the English Lute Society have supplement devoted to a number of
   Ennemond's pieces in the old tuning? I vaguely recall reading through
   such a thing.
   Rob MacKillop
   On 10 Dec 2017 14:17, "G. C." <[1][email-masked]> wrote:

        I see! Thanks for clearing that up. So, I imagine not being alone
     in
        looking forward to a scholarly collection    / edition of those
     50
        pieces, likely to be by Ennemond Gaultier in the old tuning.
        Best
        G.

     [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: "G. C." <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 15:34:15 +0100

That would be great to check out Rob. Some more specific info would
   help a lot. Thanks!
   G.

   --

---

From: "G. C." <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 16:00:14 +0100

This one gives no hits. Perhaps it was the LSA?
   [1]http://www.lutesociety.org/pages/index-of-tabulature-supplements

   On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 3:34 PM, G. C. <[2][email-masked]> wrote:

        That would be great to check out Rob. Some more specific info
     would
        help a lot. Thanks!
        G.
        --
     To get on or off this list see list information at
     [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.lutesociety.org/pages/index-of-tabulature-supplements
   2. mailto:[email-masked]
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 16:03:19 +0100

Thank you nfor these precisions. I take note with satisfaction that you also credit Vieux Gaultier with 
around 50 pieces in old tuning, which is not nothing !
For the rest, I have also been playing and studying French music in a lot of different sources and all tunings
 worldwide for over 30 years too, and I notice that the Gaultier pieces are mostly present in manuscripts 
compiled after his death on December 17th 1651, an anniversay for next week ;-) !

Another thing that troubles me is the fact that the most widely spread version of Tombeau de Mésangeau,
in d minor, seems very late (in style) compared with the year when Mésangeau actually died... And almost 
nobody so farhas made any mention of the very beautiful Tombeau de Mésangeau in flat tuning which appears 
in Rés. 6211 (f° 31v-32) in a different handwriting from the first part of the manuscript which includes 
a good number of pieces attributed to Vieux Gaultier, but in d minor. 

Different handwriting, different period ? The second part of the manuscript looks definitely older to me and 
I would think its repertoire is older too, more related to the period following Mesangeau's death in 1638.
Moreover, Mesangeau is usually supposed to have been Gaultier's teacher at a time, hence his Tombeau
as a tribute to the master. But Mésangeau did not write in D minor, only vieil ton and accords nouveaux, 
and yet the tuning was around before 1638 when Bouvier's pieces in both sharp tuning and d minor appear in 
Ballard's anthology.

Then, Gaultier went back to Dauphiné as early as 1642 (when the Queen mother died) and is not known 
to have kept contacts with the lutenists in Paris who established the use of the new "accord ordinaire". 
The only contact we are told of is with Lenclos who is not known to have written anything in the d minor tuning. 
Moreover, Gaultier's reluctance to play ("pour moy, j'ay quitté tretoute cette vilainie. - Je n'en joüerois pas pour 
tous les biens du monde,") for finally accepting to play with his old friend for what Tallemant (not always a reliable witness) 
says to be 36 hours in a row. I doubt very much he did not continue to play the instrument he had been taught to play
from a very early age (since the 1580s) and with which he had become famous at court and elsewhere...

Far from me the desire to deprive Gaultier from his wonderful pieces in d minor, which I love and play, but I simply want 
to question the traditional presentation of Gaultier as a rather monolithic monument of the baroque tuning, which for me
he is not ! I think his contribution was much more complex and deep than it actually appears...

Best wishes,

Jean-Marie Poirier  

--------------
 
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Dear FranÃƒÃ‚Â§ois-Pierre,
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ thank you very much for the learned clarification. Now, if I
>     read you
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ correctly, you say there is little hope in finding a
>     substantial number
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ of pieces by Ennemond in vieil ton. This firmly contradicts
>     what
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Jean-Marie Poirier has said about this only recently with his
>     fine
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ article in The Lute vol. 54, "RenÃƒÃ‚Â©, Robert, Ennemond,
>     Charles and the
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Other, Shadows and lights: the French lutenists of the first
>     half of
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ the seventeenth century" where he list a considerable number
>     of
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ manuscripts that might contain pieces by Vieux Gaultier in
>     vieil ton.
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Not wishing to start a confrontation, but it makes one a bit
>     confused.
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ BR
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ G.
>     Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ --

---

From: "G. C." <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 16:11:10 +0100

But then again, that index seems only to be up to 1999!
   G.

   On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 4:00 PM, G. C. <[1][email-masked]> wrote:

        This one gives no hits. Perhaps it was the LSA?
        [1][2]http://www.lutesociety.org/pages/index-of-tabulature-
     supplements
        On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 3:34 PM, G. C. <[2][3][email-masked]>
     wrote:
             That would be great to check out Rob. Some more specific
     info
          would
             help a lot. Thanks!
             G.
             --
          To get on or off this list see list information at
          [3][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
        --
     References
        1. [5]http://www.lutesociety.org/pages/index-of-tabulature-
     supplements
        2. mailto:[6][email-masked]
        3. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]
   2. http://www.lutesociety.org/pages/index-of-tabulature-supplements
   3. mailto:[email-masked]
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. http://www.lutesociety.org/pages/index-of-tabulature-supplements
   6. mailto:[email-masked]
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: "Ralf Mattes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 16:24:08 +0100

>    But then again, that index seems only to be up to 1999!

I'm pretty sure I played from that edition, most likely before mid90, maybe even late
80th. It's an edition of the pieces in old tuning from Basel University Library (and maybe
others as well, I don't remember). All very nice and ideomatic music, IIRC.

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes

---

From: "Ralf Mattes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 16:28:11 +0100

> others as well, I don't remember). All very nice and ideomatic music, IIRC.

Sorry, take that back, I think I mixed that up with the LSA edition, now online here:

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/publications/Editions/09-Gautier.html

---

From: "G. C." <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 16:35:05 +0100

Many thanks Ralf, here's a beginning at least. Speaking of which,
   wouldn't / couldn't the number of courses of those ~50 vieil ton
   Gaultier pieces be an indication of authenticity, or are they all
   11-course?
   G.
   On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 4:28 PM, Ralf Mattes <[1][email-masked]>
   wrote:

   Am Sonntag, 10. Dezember 2017 16:24 CET, "Ralf Mattes"
   <[2][email-masked]> schrieb:
   >
   > Am Sonntag, 10. Dezember 2017 16:11 CET, "G. C."
   > others as well, I don't remember). All very nice and ideomatic music,
   IIRC.
   Sorry, take that back, I think I mixed that up with the LSA edition,
   now online here:
   [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/publications/Editions/09-
   Gautier.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]
   2. mailto:[email-masked]
   3. mailto:[email-masked]
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/publications/Editions/09-Gautier.html

---

From: Mathias Rösel <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 16:27:09 +0100

> And almost nobody so far has made any mention of the very beautiful
> Tombeau de Mésangeau in flat tuning which appears in Rés. 6211 (f° 31v-32)

Did you notice the slips of the pen for the 3rd course? There are some more lines below, slightly faded, containing music in another tuning, viz. flat save the 3rd sharp.

The slips of the pen in the tombeau in the flat tuning may be explained with these other lines. The scribe may have had the other tuning in their mind.

Viewed that way, it may seem that the tombeau is an arrangement of another version (vieil ton?). If it is an arrangement, and if the mistakes were made by the scribe because of the other tuning in the faded lines, one might conclude that the tombeau was not copied from an existing tablature.

Mathias

---

From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 17:50:51 +0100

Sorry Mathias, but except the opddmistake here and there, I don't see anything strange about the 3rd course in this piece which I love and play regularly. 
It sure could be a transcription from the old tuning.
When I have the time, I will try to transcribe it back to old tuning ;-) ! Just to see...
The additional little prelude at the end is marked "ton arumay" (ton enrhumé = D minor tuning). Nothing strange here again...

All the best,

Jean-Marie

--------------

---

From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 17:58:10 +0100

ooops ! Sorry fothe typo : "except the odd mistake"...
Classical flat tuning here A D g b flat d f, supposing a lute in A...

Jean-Marie

--------------

---

From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 18:00:39 +0100

"SORRY FOR THE TYPO"  :-D!!!!

--------------

---

From: Mathias Rösel <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 22:33:43 +0100

Dear Jean-Marie,
Let me be the first, hoping that your PC opens Fronimo files.
Mathias

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 7. Februar 2018 17:51
An: Mathias Rösel; 'Baroque Lute List'
Betreff: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Denis Gaultier

All the best,

Jean-Marie

--------------

--

---

From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 22:59:03 +0100

Dear Mathias,
Thank you for the file. Here is my version, very similar to yours except bar 19 which I consider correct in the manuscript and bar 11 which I read differently from you.
This makes a total of 3 "mistakes" which is really few for a manuscript piece of this type ! 
A very beautiful piece anyway !

All the best,

Jean-Marie

--------------
 
>-----UrsprÃ¼ngliche Nachricht-----
>An: Mathias RÃ¶sel; 'Baroque Lute List'
>The additional little prelude at the end is marked "ton arumay" (ton enrhumÃ© = D minor tuning). Nothing strange here again...
>
>All the best,
>
>Jean-Marie
>
>--------------
> 
>>> Tombeau de MÃ©sangeau in flat tuning which appears in RÃ©s. 6211 (fÂ° 
>>> 31v-32)
>>