Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing (corrected)

From: Anthony Hind <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 19:02:06 +0000 (UTC)

Apologies for the message that shot off (my computer has a mind of its
   own...)

   Thanks JarosÅaw
          Whereas professional loaded bass users were forced to look for
   reliable replacements (experimenting with Gimped, pure gut, ropes or
   otherwise, KF etc), I was just keeping my old loaded basses going and
   rather lost contact with the bass string questio; so really had little
   to add.
   After a friend changed over to silver gimped I was considering doing
   the same, when Mimmo brought out the new synthetic ones. I did follow
   from afar what a few others were doing.
   In respect to Venices, perhaps your difference of appreciation,
   compared to Martin, could result from your using them at different
   tensions: I imagine they would not work well at the low tensions Martin
   may perhaps have tried them. Indeed I use my Venice octaves at a higher
   tension than my basses, and love them in that use.
   On the question of more or less sustain on basses, I suppose we all
   adapt by tweaking our styles and tensions to our string choices; but
   just the fact that French lutenists sought out vintage lutes, could
   according to Jakob Lindberg's experience with the Rauwolf, imply
   articulate sustain was very important to them, and so possibly also for
   their basses? perhaps ...
   Best wishes
   Anthony

   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   On samedi, fÃ©vrier 4, 2017, 11:51 AM, JarosÅaw Lipski
   <[email-masked]> wrote:

   Hello Anthony,
   I am fine, thank you. I haven't heard from you for a while, but it's
   nice to see you on our lute list again :)
   Actually I meant KF strings. String ends have to be split (whittled if
   you like), otherwise they are so stiff that tying them would be very
   difficult. Also they wouldn't form a proper knot and initial point of
   vibration would be further away from the bridge. In general this kind
   of problem is characteristic for very stiff strings. Fortunately
   Venices  due to their rope construction are much more pliable, so there
   is no problem with attaching them at the bridge.
   Best wishes
   Jaroslaw
   > On 04 Feb 2017, at 00:20, Anthony Hind <[2][email-masked]>
   wrote:
   >
   > Hello Jaroslaw
   >    I hope things are going well with you.
   > When you say of your Venice, "Yes, mine have split ends at the
   bridge." Do you mean you have managed to separate the ends of the twine
   and pass them separately through the bridge hole?
   > This is what Charles Besnainou does with his spring twines. This
   results probably in a lower impedance in the same way as Martin's
   whittled down KFs, I would suppose?
   > Best wishes
   > Anthony
   >
   >
   > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone <[3]https://yho.com/footer0>
   >
   > Le vendredi, fÃ©vrier 3, 2017, 4:45 PM, JarosÅaw Lipski
   <[4][email-masked] <mailto:[5][email-masked]>> a Ã©crit :
   >
   > Martin,
   >
   > > When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was
   talking only about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.
   >
   > I tried both thicker and thinner Aquilla Venice ropes and even on 4th
   course they sound brighter than plain gut IMHO. But, this discussion
   only shows how relative our sound perception is.
   > >
   > > For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use
   will not work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and
   stiff to work.  On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing
   larger than 1.50mm (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th
   course.
   > >
   >
   > I am using 1.60 on 11th course and it works fine for me. But again
   it's a matter of taste.
   >
   > > Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them
   where they go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of
   the bridge.  If you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you will
   probably get problems with the strings buzzing against the top of the
   bridge.
   > >
   >
   > Yes, mine have split ends at the bridge.
   >
   > Best
   >
   > Jaroslaw
   >
   >
   > > Martin
   > >
   > > On 03/02/2017 11:39, JarosÅaw Lipski wrote:
   > >> Mimmo,
   > >>
   > >>> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut?
   I have the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped
   string was done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins'
   twisted like as rope and then polished. In practice our Venices.
   > >> Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They
   are brighter than plain gut
   > >>
   > >>> I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation:
   > >> I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs
   have shorter sustain, are more percussive and â¦slightly duller sound
   IMO. KFs work well till 11th course on BQL. I don't like them on
   diapasons. CDs have stronger fundamental, longer sustain (much longer
   than guts) and work very well on diapasons, however their elasticity
   make them work only on instruments with higher than normal action and
   wide string spacing. Also tuning is not ideal.
   > >>
   > >>> Heck, guys, what to do? first or second option?
   > >>> At present the second option is the winner!
   > >> Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If
   you aim at finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings
   would be better. I am used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a
   little bit stiffer string. If someone played only overwounds he/she
   would probably prefer longer sustain. So the answer to your question
   will depend on whom you'll ask.
   > >> All in all there is no one answer to this question, and probably
   you would have to take into consideration your business strategy.
   > >> Best
   > >> Ciao
   > >>
   > >> Jaroslaw
   > >>
   > >>
   > >>
   > >>
   > >>> ciao to all
   > >>> Mimmo
   > >>>
   > >>> -----Messaggio originale----- From: Martin Shepherd
   > >>> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 10:22 AM
   > >>> To: Mimmo Peruffo ; Matthew Daillie
   > >>> Cc: Arto Wikla ;  <>[6][email-masked]
   <mailto:[7][email-masked]>
   > >>> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
   > >>>
   > >>> Thanks, Mimmo.
   > >>>
   > >>> I agree absolutely that there is no need to make versions of
   these
   > >>> strings thinner than .80mm.
   > >>>
   > >>> The issue of damping is perhaps the one which worries me most.
   In the
   > >>> case of roped strings, they sound duller than a plain gut string
   of the
   > >>> same size, presumably because of internal friction between the
   strands
   > >>> of the rope.  In the case of rubber strings (sorry!) what worries
   me is
   > >>> that some damping/absorption of energy is happening as the string
   > >>> stretches and contracts with each vibration.  The KF fluorocarbon
   > >>> strings, being solid and stiff, have neither of these damping
   effects.
   > >>> I can imagine that a string which was "floppy" but not especially
   > >>> elastic would work well.
   > >>>
   > >>> I hope that a lower rubber content would allow the strings to
   slide
   > >>> better over the nut, which would also be a welcome
   characteristic.
   > >>>
   > >>> Best to all,
   > >>>
   > >>> Martin
   > >>>
   > >>> On 03/02/2017 10:09, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:
   > >>>> Thank you very much about all these helpfull suggestions, guys.
   > >>>>
   > >>>> actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half loaded
   using also a stiffer elastomer.  This combination is perfect fo the
   tonl trasiction betweenj pure gut/nylon/Nylgut to a wound strings, KF
   or CDs etc etc.
   > >>>> I call this range of gauges simply as Meanes. they are still CD
   types however.
   > >>>> In practice they  are around the 5th course of renaissance & d
   minor Lutes.
   > >>>> I have intentionally exluded the  4th courses because make not
   sense at all to use a denser strings on it. The  80 CD is just done for
   those that are curious.
   > >>>>
   > >>>> well, I done the very first prototypes (than cannot be perfect)
   and sent out to some friends to hear their opinions: of course, some of
   them were uneven. Despite that I had very good reports.
   > >>>> Some installed them also like octaves (!): I never realized that
   additional option. However,  I do not raccomend. Octaves normally can
   works at higher working index than a 5 th course;  so they can breack.
   > >>>>
   > >>>> said that, I agree with you Matthew. thanks
   > >>>>
   > >>>> Martin, a stiffer string has an higher elasticity modulus so the
   performances are  less good than those of an equivalent string with
   more elasticity. You probably reffers to the KF strings. However there
   are others parameters at work here, for example the inner damping
   effect is one of them, and it  is not related to the elasticity
   modulus. This explain for example why a special kind of nylon, whose
   density is far less than fluorocarbon sound like this one. It was a
   huge surprise to me!
   > >>>>
   > >>>> I am thinking that you guys prefer  the second option. To me is
   even better, it help to solve some problem becausew they sometime stick
   on the nut slots/ grooves.
   > >>>>
   > >>>> False strings? yes, with prototypes  can happen. when one start
   with  the ufficial production an extruder plant work exatly in the same
   even way. The first strings are the waste and then the rest are done
   exactly in the same way.
   > >>>> well, I am leaving italy to London so I have not time to re
   start; I will do some samples both for meanes and basses just to see if
   they actually works in the proper way
   > >>>> Be patient again;  i cannot be too fast  here.
   > >>>> Mimmo
   > >>>>
   > >>>>
   > >>>> -----Messaggio originale----- From: Martin Shepherd
   > >>>> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 9:35 AM
   > >>>> To: Matthew Daillie ; Mimmo Peruffo
   > >>>> Cc: Arto Wikla ;  <>[8][email-masked]
   <mailto:[9][email-masked]>
   > >>>> Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
   > >>>>
   > >>>> Tout Ã  fait d'accord, Matthew.
   > >>>>
   > >>>> I would add that "trueness" is not just a question of intonation
   when
   > >>>> notes are fretted.  A false string never sounds in tune even as
   an open
   > >>>> string, and the pattern of vibration makes it buzz against the
   frets.
   > >>>> If your string heights are high enough that this isn't a
   problem,
   > >>>> they're too high.
   > >>>>
   > >>>> I don't know whether the samples I had from Mimmo some time ago
   are the
   > >>>> same as the current production, but I thought they were too
   elastic.  He
   > >>>> did say he was going to make a less elastic version for the
   thinner
   > >>>> strings, but I don't know whether he's implemented this idea or
   not (can
   > >>>> you tell us, Mimmo?).  I'm slightly puzzled by the suggestion
   that the
   > >>>> less elastic version would have a duller or darker sound, I
   would almost
   > >>>> expect the opposite - as a comparison, the KF strings are very
   stiff but
   > >>>> sound bright.
   > >>>>
   > >>>> It would be such a shame if after all his efforts we end up with
   a
   > >>>> string which is not as good as the old loaded gut.  Actually the
   new
   > >>>> string needs to be better than that in terms of trueness.
   > >>>>
   > >>>> Best wishes to all,
   > >>>>
   > >>>> Martin
   > >>>>
   > >>>> On 03/02/2017 09:06, Matthew Daillie wrote:
   > >>>>> Dear Mimmo,
   > >>>>> In my opinion there are two factors which need to be given
   priority even before judging the sound of a string. Firstly it has to
   be true (with no problems of intonation going up the fingerboard for
   stopped strings) and secondly it has to be playable: on a well-made and
   well set up lute, it must not catch on the nut, buzz, hit a
   neighbouring string, hit against the fingerboard, or cause any other
   extraneous noises. If a string has the potential to sound wonderful but
   does not meet these two criteria, then it is of no use whatsoever.
   > >>>>> Once that is established, obviously players want a string with
   a full-bodied and stable tone, enough sustain to make voice-leading a
   pleasure and the instrument to sing to the best of its ability and
   sufficient power to provide convincing projection and resonance.
   > >>>>> Personally I am looking for a warm and sweet tone with precise
   fundamentals and enough overtones to make the timbre rich and variable.
   > >>>>> Oh dear, that does sound like a holy grail doesn't it?
   > >>>>> Fingers crossed!
   > >>>>> Best
   > >>>>> Matthew
   > >>>>>
   > >>>>>
   > >>>>>
   > >>>>>
   > >>>>>> On Feb 3, 2017, at 8:29, Mimmo Peruffo <
   <>[10][email-masked] <mailto:[11][email-masked]>>
   wrote:
   > >>>>>>
   > >>>>>>  Thank you for the suggestion Arto.
   > >>>>>>  Unfortunately i cannot do it
   > >>>>>>  I already image how confuse the thing will be with the
   customers.
   > >>>>>>  This mean the eford to mannage twice products and honestly I
   do not
   > >>>>>>  like to add cofusion in the factory and with customers
   already stressed
   > >>>>>>  by me!
   > >>>>>>
   > >>>>>>  I should do a choice and in fast time: is it better a more
   elastic
   > >>>>>>  string like these are (whith problems related to the fact
   that maybe
   > >>>>>>  stretch tooo much and that the sound is too bright) or it is
   better to
   > >>>>>>  switch to a less elastic plastic support with the advantage
   that it
   > >>>>>>  stretch less, the sound is darker and with less sustain?
   > >>>>>>  Hard to do the choice: both solutions are ok; i already tried
   the
   > >>>>>>  second option that is similar to the loaded gut strings
   > >>>>>>  Even Anthony Bailes suggested me the second option.
   > >>>>>>
   > >>>>>>  Strings or not to strings? this is the question
   > >>>>>>
   > >>>>>>  ah ah
   > >>>>>>  (my poor english at work)
   > >>>>>>  Ciao
   > >>>>>>  Mimmo
   > >>>>>>
   > >>>>>>  ps
   > >>>>>>  which are your suggestion guys?
   > >>>>>>
   > >>>>>>
   > >>>>>>
   > >>>>>>  -----Messaggio originale-----
   > >>>>>>  From: Arto Wikla
   > >>>>>>  Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:46 PM
   > >>>>>>  To: Mimmo Peruffo ;  <>[12][email-masked]
   <mailto:[13][email-masked]>
   > >>>>>>  Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
   > >>>>>>
   > >>>>>>  Dear Mimmo,
   > >>>>>>
   > >>>>>>  if you decide to make the loaded nylgut strings (CD) less
   elastic, I
   > >>>>>>  hope (and wish and urge ;-) ) that you keep also the original
   elastic
   > >>>>>>  version in your repertoire! They work exceptionally well on
   my Harz
   > >>>>>>  arclute, great stuff.
   > >>>>>>
   > >>>>>>  And big thanks for your invaluable work!
   > >>>>>>
   > >>>>>>  Arto
   > >>>>>>
   > >>>>>>>  On 02/02/17 14:03, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:
   > >>>>>>> Well, seeing this post I have the idea to switch to these
   stiffer
   > >>>>>>  ones.
   > >>>>>>> at the end of the day they are closer to those loaded strings
   made of
   > >>>>>>  gut.
   > >>>>>>> I will do some samples in advance.
   > >>>>>>> Mimmo
   > >>>>>>
   > >>>>>>  To get on or off this list see list information at
   > >>>>>>  [14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   <[15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>
   > >>>>>>
   > >>>>>>  --
   > >>>>
   > >>>> ---
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---

From: "Mimmo Peruffo" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 20:27:17 +0100

Hello to anyone
   I have made this video showing the last version of ther CD basses.

   [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKrNCEOfPVM

   there is  a brief text in the video explaining the difference than the
   first CD's types.
   In the video I am a bit tired after this very stresses job.
   Do not worry for that
   Mimmo

   --

References

   1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKrNCEOfPVM

---

From: Rob MacKillop <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 23:17:53 +0000

Sounds good to me.

Rob

www.robmackillop.net 

> On 8 Feb 2017, at 19:27, Mimmo Peruffo <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> 
>   Hello to anyone
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html