Subject: Pitch center on a 10 cs. lute

From: "Paul Daverman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 15:02:48 -0500

I am building a 10 cs. lute per Robert Lundberg's plans (10-cs
   Renaissance Lute, Dieffopruchar 1612).  I am to the point where I have
   begun looking at strings so that I have an idea of diameters, etc.  As
   this is my first lute build, I am looking at Nylgut and am looking to
   tune to AD0.  One of the suppliers to which I have inquired has said
   that in A440 tuning, they have no strings at 65cm length that can take
   the tension for the chanderelle (and that no gut could either.)  He
   said that the instrument was probably meant for A92 and while he could
   supply strings in either tuning, I'd have to look elsewhere for a
   string for the chanderelle if I chose A440.

   I am wondering if any of you can talk to this topic.  Would I be over
   stressing the lute if I tune to the  modern tuning of A440?  Would A392
   have been the intended tuning or maybe A415?  What other repercussions
   of tuning one way vs. another should I know about?  My music theory is
   a bit poor - is the difference between going from A440 tuning to A392
   really any different that transposing down a (??) major second?  Any
   word to help get all this straight in my mind would be appreciated.
   While I understand that "pitch" is all relative, I'm having a difficult
   time getting my arms around the practical understanding of what I
   should do for stringing.  Thanks.

   Paul

   --

---

From: William Samson <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 20:41:37 +0000 (GMT)

Hi Paul,

   I have a 10c lute of 66cm scale.  The highest I can take it with a
   nylon chanterelle (the strongest material) is f# at A440 - and that's
   really pushing it.  I normally keep it at f.  Even at f, with a nylgut
   chanterelle, it tends to break quite frequently, which is why I use
   nylon for that one string.  Of course f at A440 is the same as g at
   A392 and as I normally play it solo it doesn't matter a bit.

   It makes no difference how thick or thin the chanterelle is (for a
   given material), it will always tend to break at the same pitch, so
   substituting a string of different diameter won't help.  So the problem
   isn't one of overstressing the lute if you tune it at A440, it's the
   impossibility of finding a string material for the chanterelle to take
   that pitch.

   For the record, A415 is a semitone down from A440 and A392 is a whole
   tone down from A440.

   Hope that helps!

   Bill
   From: Paul Daverman <[email-masked]>
   To: [email-masked]
   Sent: Tuesday, 1 January 2013, 20:02
   Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Pitch center on a 10 cs. lute
     I am building a 10 cs. lute per Robert Lundberg's plans (10-cs
     Renaissance Lute, Dieffopruchar 1612).  I am to the point where I
   have
     begun looking at strings so that I have an idea of diameters, etc.
   As
     this is my first lute build, I am looking at Nylgut and am looking to
     tune to AD0.  One of the suppliers to which I have inquired has said
     that in A440 tuning, they have no strings at 65cm length that can
   take
     the tension for the chanderelle (and that no gut could either.)  He
     said that the instrument was probably meant for A92 and while he
   could
     supply strings in either tuning, I'd have to look elsewhere for a
     string for the chanderelle if I chose A440.
     I am wondering if any of you can talk to this topic.  Would I be over
     stressing the lute if I tune to the  modern tuning of A440?  Would
   A392
     have been the intended tuning or maybe A415?  What other
   repercussions
     of tuning one way vs. another should I know about?  My music theory
   is
     a bit poor - is the difference between going from A440 tuning to A392
     really any different that transposing down a (??) major second?  Any
     word to help get all this straight in my mind would be appreciated.
     While I understand that "pitch" is all relative, I'm having a
   difficult
     time getting my arms around the practical understanding of what I
     should do for stringing.  Thanks.
     Paul
     --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: "Din Ghani" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 21:34:41 -0000

Hi Paul

There is a useful explanation of the breaking limits for strings on the
Aquila website:

http://www.aquilacorde.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=41&I
temid=1384&lang=en

Look for point 13 - however please note that the discussion is based on the
old Nylgut material - according to their page on "New Nylgut" the breaking
index for this is significantly higher than for the old version. This would
seem to indicate that it would be possible to string a 65cm G-lute to A440
using New Nylgut - has anyone had first-hand experience of this? 

On the more general issue of pitch, is there any specific reason for wanting
to tune it to A440 (I am assuming that you are talking about it being
nominally a G lute)? As Bill indicated, if you'll be playing solo mainly it
doesn't really matter, and it's possible you might find the instrument of
that size may work better at a lower pitch. Also, if you work with singers
the lower pitch can be more comfortable for the voice.

Best wishes

Din

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf
Of William Samson
Sent: 01 January 2013 20:42
To: Paul Daverman; [email-masked]
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Pitch center on a 10 cs. lute

   Hi Paul,

   Hope that helps!

   Bill

   --

References

---

From: sterling price <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 20:22:28 -0800 (PST)

I have an 8 string guitar with an A first string at 65cm at 440. The
   size of the string is 0.41 and it sounds geat. It has been tuned up to
   pitch since 2008. I think it is nylon and I got it off my baroque lute.
   --Sterling
   From: Din Ghani <[email-masked]>
   To: 'Paul Daverman' <[email-masked]>;
   [email-masked]
   Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 2:34 PM
   Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Pitch center on a 10 cs. lute
   Hi Paul
   There is a useful explanation of the breaking limits for strings on the
   Aquila website:
   [1]http://www.aquilacorde.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article
   &idA&I
   temid84&lang=en
   Look for point 13 - however please note that the discussion is based on
   the
   old Nylgut material - according to their page on "New Nylgut" the
   breaking
   index for this is significantly higher than for the old version. This
   would
   seem to indicate that it would be possible to string a 65cm G-lute to
   A440
   using New Nylgut - has anyone had first-hand experience of this?
   On the more general issue of pitch, is there any specific reason for
   wanting
   to tune it to A440 (I am assuming that you are talking about it being
   nominally a G lute)? As Bill indicated, if you'll be playing solo
   mainly it
   doesn't really matter, and it's possible you might find the instrument
   of
   that size may work better at a lower pitch. Also, if you work with
   singers
   the lower pitch can be more comfortable for the voice.
   Best wishes
   Din
   -----Original Message-----
   From: [2][email-masked]
   [mailto:[3][email-masked]] On Behalf
   Of William Samson
   Sent: 01 January 2013 20:42
   To: Paul Daverman; [4][email-masked]
   Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Pitch center on a 10 cs. lute
     Hi Paul,
     I have a 10c lute of 66cm scale.  The highest I can take it with a
     nylon chanterelle (the strongest material) is f# at A440 - and that's
     really pushing it.  I normally keep it at f.  Even at f, with a
   nylgut
     chanterelle, it tends to break quite frequently, which is why I use
     nylon for that one string.  Of course f at A440 is the same as g at
     A392 and as I normally play it solo it doesn't matter a bit.
     It makes no difference how thick or thin the chanterelle is (for a
     given material), it will always tend to break at the same pitch, so
     substituting a string of different diameter won't help.  So the
   problem
     isn't one of overstressing the lute if you tune it at A440, it's the
     impossibility of finding a string material for the chanterelle to
   take
     that pitch.
     For the record, A415 is a semitone down from A440 and A392 is a whole
     tone down from A440.
     Hope that helps!
     Bill
     From: Paul Daverman <[5][email-masked]>
     To: [6][email-masked]
     Sent: Tuesday, 1 January 2013, 20:02
     Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Pitch center on a 10 cs. lute
       I am building a 10 cs. lute per Robert Lundberg's plans (10-cs
       Renaissance Lute, Dieffopruchar 1612).  I am to the point where I
     have
       begun looking at strings so that I have an idea of diameters, etc.
     As
       this is my first lute build, I am looking at Nylgut and am looking
   to
       tune to AD0.  One of the suppliers to which I have inquired has
   said
       that in A440 tuning, they have no strings at 65cm length that can
     take
       the tension for the chanderelle (and that no gut could either.)  He
       said that the instrument was probably meant for A92 and while he
     could
       supply strings in either tuning, I'd have to look elsewhere for a
       string for the chanderelle if I chose A440.
       I am wondering if any of you can talk to this topic.  Would I be
   over
       stressing the lute if I tune to the  modern tuning of A440?  Would
     A392
       have been the intended tuning or maybe A415?  What other
     repercussions
       of tuning one way vs. another should I know about?  My music theory
     is
       a bit poor - is the difference between going from A440 tuning to
   A392
       really any different that transposing down a (??) major second?
   Any
       word to help get all this straight in my mind would be appreciated.
       While I understand that "pitch" is all relative, I'm having a
     difficult
       time getting my arms around the practical understanding of what I
       should do for stringing.  Thanks.
       Paul
       --
     To get on or off this list see list information at
     [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
     --
   References
     1. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.aquilacorde.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&idA&I
   2. mailto:[email-masked]
   3. mailto:[email-masked]
   4. mailto:[email-masked]
   5. mailto:[email-masked]
   6. mailto:[email-masked]
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: Jon Murphy <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 02:42:35 -0500

I built a 63+ cm. length lute some years back, actually a "bastard" lute 
in that it was Music Maker's "flatback". I had the breakage problem with 
the chanterelle also - I was pitching to A440 and tuning to G. Musical 
nylon would last a few days, nylgut would break almost immediately. I 
went to a sporting goods store and chatted with the fishing department - 
they gave me about 10 feet of nylon "leader" line to try. It worked, I 
have had no breakage in ten years.

The Aquila article is interesting, but perhaps overly technical as it 
doesn't start with the basic principle. Please pardon my simple primer, 
I'm sure it is obvious to most of you - but I had played guitar for 
years before I realized this.

A string (or a rope, or a structural wire/rod) breaks when the stress on 
it exceeds the tensile strength of the material used. We stress a 
musical string when we tune it up to the tension for the desired 
pitch/frequency. The frequency of the vibration is a function of the 
combination of string (or rope - think of the shrouds of a sailboat 
humming in a strong wind) length, the tension, and the vibrating mass of 
the string.

The mass is a function of the density of the material (mass/weight per 
unit - i.e., lbs./cubic inch, grams/cubic cm., etc) and the number of 
units (length, sort of). I say mass/weight for the very technical, they 
are the same in our gravity. Notice that it is a cubic measure - a long 
thin string will have the same weight as a short fat one.

The tensile strength is also a function of the specific material, and it 
is normally measured in weight per cross-sectional unit (i.e., 
lbs/square in., kilograms/square cm.). A thin string will break when 
supporting less weight than a fat one because of the greater 
cross-sectional area.  We normally measure the tension on our musical 
strings using pounds (or a metric weight), but that is shorthand - the 
newton is the general measure.

My revelation (satori?) when I was building that lute was that, given 
the material and the length, any gauge of string will break at the same 
pitch. The thicker the gauge the stronger the string, but also the 
greater the vibrating mass. The greater vibrating mass requires greater 
tension on the string to bring it to pitch. It happens that the 
competing factors (the square measure of cross-section that defines 
tensile strength and the cubic measure of mass) meet at a point we can 
call the "breaking pitch" for a given length and material.

This, of course, applies to monofiliment strings, wound strings add mass 
without changing the core strength, but that is another matter.

Best, Jon

On 1/1/2013 3:02 PM, Paul Daverman wrote:
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

---

From: Charles Browne <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 09:32:10 +0000

it is not impossible. I have a Stephen Barber archlute and the SL for the first pegbox is 650mm top string tuned as g' with a'=440. I use an old Nylgut .38 and that has not broken. I must be lucky! It may be relevant that the top course runs over the nut and to the first peg outside the pegbox. The line from bridge to peg is perfectly straight and I suspect this reduces the risk of string breakage on sharp edges of the nut etc. The other factor may be that there is no crowding of the string windings against the side of the pegbox. 
Best of luck
Charles

---

From: James Jackson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 19:48:59 +0000

Hi Paul,

   I'll be honest, a scale of 65cm would be much more suited for a pitch
   of F at AD0 - I think you'll find with a lute that is a little larger,
   like this one, will sound so much better at that pitch. The whole
   instrument will resonate better if you string it at the pitch it was
   designed for, as I highly doubt the original instrument was ever tuned
   to the equivalent of G at AD0, more likely the instrument was at F at
   modern pitch.

   James
   On 1 January 2013 20:02, Paul Daverman <[1][email-masked]>
   wrote:

        I am building a 10 cs. lute per Robert Lundberg's plans (10-cs
        Renaissance Lute, Dieffopruchar 1612).  I am to the point where I
     have
        begun looking at strings so that I have an idea of diameters,
     etc.  As
        this is my first lute build, I am looking at Nylgut and am
     looking to
        tune to AD0.  One of the suppliers to which I have inquired has
     said
        that in A440 tuning, they have no strings at 65cm length that can
     take
        the tension for the chanderelle (and that no gut could either.)
     He
        said that the instrument was probably meant for A92 and while he
     could
        supply strings in either tuning, I'd have to look elsewhere for a
        string for the chanderelle if I chose A440.
        I am wondering if any of you can talk to this topic.  Would I be
     over
        stressing the lute if I tune to the  modern tuning of A440?
     Would A392
        have been the intended tuning or maybe A415?  What other
     repercussions
        of tuning one way vs. another should I know about?  My music
     theory is
        a bit poor - is the difference between going from A440 tuning to
     A392
        really any different that transposing down a (??) major second?
     Any
        word to help get all this straight in my mind would be
     appreciated.
        While I understand that "pitch" is all relative, I'm having a
     difficult
        time getting my arms around the practical understanding of what I
        should do for stringing.  Thanks.
        Paul
        --
     To get on or off this list see list information at
     [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: James Jackson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 02:51:06 +0000

Hi Paul,

   No need to be embarrassed.  We all started not playing the lute
   remember!  Never be afraid to ask questions here,  you'll find everyone
   here more than happy to answer your questions,  no matter whatever they
   are.

   You're correct in your assumption,  the renaissance lute comes in
   different pitches. The tuning intervals remain the same, the whole
   instrument is at a different pitch. When we refer to a lute in a
   certain pitch,  say G, we're referring to the first course. G would be
   alto,  F and E are considered tenor lutes,  all the way down to huge
   bass lutes of D and C,  then up A, B, and C treble and descant lutes.
   So, when we refer to a tenor lute in F, the whole instrument is tuned a
   tone lower than an alto lute in G.

   There were many duet and trio pieces written for lutes tuned in
   different pitches.

   Also, you are completely correct that a lute tuned in G at 392 would be
   the same as a lute tuned to F at 440,  within one or two cents.

   So in a nutshell you were on the right track,  if you tune your lute to
   F you start the progression of the intervals from there.

   Personally,  if it were me,  I would definitely pitch your at F with a
   scale of 65cm. I actually prefer the sound of a tenor lute in F for
   solo work, the larger size of the instrument gives a richer sound.
   Some prefer the bright sound of a lute in A for solo work (A lute in A
   would have a scale of about 57cm), it's all down to preferences really.

   So your lute being 65cm, your choices are,  in modern 440 pitch,  F,
   F#,  or G,  but as mentioned before,  going for G will need thin
   strings at high tension.

   Hope that is of some help to you and feel free to ask away if you have
   any other questions!

   James

   On Jan 3, 2013 1:58 AM, "Paul Daverman"
   <[1][email-masked]> wrote:

   Hi James,

   Okay....I'm very embarrassed here and am getting very confused.  I
   don't play the lute (yet) and I'm feeling like I'm missing something
   major here!  (For the record, I play the mandolin some.)  What do you
   actually mean by "pitch of F" or "pitch of G"?  Are lutes not
   chromatic?  Is that what I've been missing all this time?  Are they
   diatonic like my penny-whistle in D, etc?  Or when you say "pitch of F"
   or "in G" is it merely meant that the chanderelle (highest note) is "F"
   or "G" and the starting place for the progression of courses?  If the
   latter, I should think that "in G" in A392 would be identical to "F" in
   A440 since 392 hz is a whole step away from 440hz.  Is that true?  What
   would the "F" (at A440) look like?  Just one whole note down on each
   course from the "G" tuning I would think?

   Again, my apologies for my great lack of understanding.  And thank-you
   for your patience with me.  (I didn't reply to the whole forum here
   because, frankly, I'm feeling a bit stupid and didn't really need that
   to be what people found if they googled my name.)

   Thanks so much!

   Paul

   From: James Jackson [mailto:[2][email-masked]]
   Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 2:49 PM
   To: Paul Daverman
   Cc: [3][email-masked]
   Subject: Re: [LUTE-BUILDER] Pitch center on a 10 cs. lute

   Hi Paul,

   James

   On 1 January 2013 20:02, Paul Daverman <[4][email-masked]>
   wrote:

   [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]
   2. mailto:[email-masked]
   3. mailto:[email-masked]
   4. mailto:[email-masked]
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: James Jackson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 03:09:02 +0000

My huge apologies to Paul and everyone else -

   I really embarrassed myself there - Paul emailed me personally and my
   last reply to Paul was intended to be emailed directly and my stupid
   email set up automatically CC'ed it to everyone on the list.

   So, to Paul, I really do apologise and everyone else too. Made a little
   bit of a fool of myself there.

   James.
   On 3 January 2013 02:51, James Jackson <[1][email-masked]>
   wrote:

   Hi Paul,

   James

   --

References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]

---

From: "Paul Daverman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 07:16:49 -0500

James,
Please don't worry about it.  That is fine.  Sounds like I was not so far
off in my understanding.  Certainly the world of lute is new to me, but I
was having a bit of a panic attack in that I'm about 1/3 to 1/2 done
building this thing and suddenly feared there was something REALLY major
that I was missing in my understanding.  Sometimes I lose myself in the
details and drift away from the bigger picture.  Thanks for drawing me back
in.

And yes, I agree that I think I would like with the F at A440 for a richer
sound.  I have my mandolins for a brighter sound if that's what I'm in the
mood for.

Thanks again,

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf
Of James Jackson
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 10:09 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Pitch center on a 10 cs. lute

   James.

   Hi Paul,

   James

   --

References

---

From: KathGuitar <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 07:57:13 -0700

You didn't make a fool of yourself; we all can appreciate any new info we haven't seen and it showed what a great heart you have.

Happy New Year!
Jim Kath