Subject: RE: Englemann Spruce

From: "Louis Aull" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 08:35:48 -0400

James,

   The high grade Englemann I have used produces a very warm full sound.
   It is also by far the best looking wood. It has to be about 20% thicker
   than Alpine for the same strength. I have not worked with Alpine
   because the few pieces I have purchased (top grade) were of poor
   quality by comparison. I like to use Sitka spruce on ren lutes for it's
   brightness.

   Now some words of caution: the soft part of the wood is very soft and
   will pull out with tape. Chip carving on Englemann is extremely
   difficult due to that softness. It would rather tear than cut. Other
   rosette carving produces a lot of fuzz and is difficult.  I don't
   bother with the chip carving and focus on perfecting the rosette. The
   only tape I have found that will not pull the soft wood out is drafting
   tape, used and removed with great caution. I usually leave a few tenths
   of mm around the edges for the final sanding to get the divots in the
   soft wood flat again. It soaks up dirt, stain, and varnish like a
   sponge so plan on being more cleanly. That same sponge effect makes it
   glue better. Anyone who plays one of my Englemann lutes wears a pinky
   protector or does not touch the top. (Including Hoppy Smith)

   Is it worth it? To me, no doubt. After my first Englemann top, I
   wouldn't play the others. I have since replaced all the other tops.

   Louis Aull

   --

---

From: James Jackson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 13:06:48 +0100

Thanks for your advice,

   I've decided to go for Englemann. I'm going for grade 7 (Second down
   from highest on their grade) which the timber supplier describes as
   "Near perfection - very slow growth, the widest
   growth ring approximately 2mm within the template area.
   Very limited acceptance of colour variation, otherwise same as
   grade 8. Best possible quartering and
   the minimum possible run-out (short grain). The wood will
   be stiff with a high pitched tap tone."
   So hopefully, I should be in for a good soundboard!!
   James.
   On 16 May 2012 13:35, Louis Aull <[1][email-masked]> wrote:

       James,
       The high grade Englemann I have used produces a very warm full
     sound.
       It is also by far the best looking wood. It has to be about 20%
     thicker
       than Alpine for the same strength. I have not worked with Alpine
       because the few pieces I have purchased (top grade) were of poor
       quality by comparison. I like to use Sitka spruce on ren lutes for
     it's
       brightness.
       Now some words of caution: the soft part of the wood is very soft
     and
       will pull out with tape. Chip carving on Englemann is extremely
       difficult due to that softness. It would rather tear than cut.
     Other
       rosette carving produces a lot of fuzz and is difficult.  I don't
       bother with the chip carving and focus on perfecting the rosette.
     The
       only tape I have found that will not pull the soft wood out is
     drafting
       tape, used and removed with great caution. I usually leave a few
     tenths
       of mm around the edges for the final sanding to get the divots in
     the
       soft wood flat again. It soaks up dirt, stain, and varnish like a
       sponge so plan on being more cleanly. That same sponge effect
     makes it
       glue better. Anyone who plays one of my Englemann lutes wears a
     pinky
       protector or does not touch the top. (Including Hoppy Smith)
       Is it worth it? To me, no doubt. After my first Englemann top, I
       wouldn't play the others. I have since replaced all the other
     tops.
       Louis Aull
       --
     To get on or off this list see list information at
     [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: "Tim@Buckeye" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 17:57:36 -0400

James,
To further confuse the issue, Northern Tonewoods offers Red Spruce soundboards. 

http://www.hvgb.net/~tonewood/acousticguitar.htm

I'm in the middle of building an A lute with one of their soundboards. Tap tone is very clear and bright. I don't know how the lute will sound, but it should be pretty bright. 

Tim

Sent from my iPhone

---

From: James Jackson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 00:52:53 +0100

Shouldn't red spruce be synonymous with red cedar?

   I've heard of cedar topped lutes - from what I understand (And I really
   don't understand much yet!), cedar can work well on smaller lutes, A,
   B, C and D ren lutes.

   Unless I'm getting this wrong and red spruce IS different?

   My Englemann soundboard arrived. It's really an excellent piece of
   timber. No run out, or short grain, amazing tap tone, feels lovely and
   dry crispy under thumb, and the grain is VERY fine in the area where
   the rose is to be cut, which is a plus!

   It's actually the nicest soundboard I've bought yet...I've bought
   several middle grade Alpine spruce boards, non of them have the tap
   tone or the lack of short grain this one has. I'm very happy!

   On 17 May 2012 22:57, Tim@Buckeye <[1][email-masked]>
   wrote:

     James,
     To further confuse the issue, Northern Tonewoods offers Red Spruce
     soundboards.
     [2]http://www.hvgb.net/~tonewood/acousticguitar.htm
     I'm in the middle of building an A lute with one of their
     soundboards. Tap tone is very clear and bright. I don't know how the
     lute will sound, but it should be pretty bright.
     Tim
     Sent from my iPhone

   On May 17, 2012, at 8:06 AM, James Jackson
   <[3][email-masked]> wrote:
   >   On 16 May 2012 13:35, Louis Aull <[1][4][email-masked]> wrote:
   >
   >       James,
   >     [2][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   >   --
   >
   > References
   >
   >   1. mailto:[6][email-masked]
   >   2. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >

   --

References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]
   2. http://www.hvgb.net/~tonewood/acousticguitar.htm
   3. mailto:[email-masked]
   4. mailto:[email-masked]
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. mailto:[email-masked]
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: Mark Day <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 20:55:09 -0400

Red cedar and red Spruce are two different trees. Both are native to
   North America. red spruce (picea rubens) is also known by Adirondack
   spruce and comes from, you guessed it; the Eastern part of North
   America along the Adirondack range. Western red cedar (Thuja plicata)
   is native to the Pacific Northwest.
   Adirondack or red spruce is famed for pre-war Martin guitars. It is
   supposed to exhibit properties close to that of European spruces which
   is not surprising since at one time the western shore of Europe and the
   eastern shore of North America where probably one. I don't know of
   anyone who has made the connection and tried it for a lute yet, but
   it's on my bucket list of things to do. It is very expensive and
   difficult to get wide pieces because it was indiscriminately logged out
   by our thoughtful ancestors, but you can still get it.
   Western red cedar is offered as an option by Dan Larson and Mel Wong
   told me one of the nicest sounding lutes he built had a WRC top, and I
   re-topped my cheap Pakistani-built lute with a WRC top and it sounds
   beautiful.
   My first "from scratch" build was a vihuela with an Engleman spruce
   top. I think it also sounds very nice despite my inexperience in
   luthiery.
   Cheers,
   Mark

   On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 7:52 PM, James Jackson
   <[1][email-masked]> wrote:

       Shouldn't red spruce be synonymous with red cedar?
       I've heard of cedar topped lutes - from what I understand (And I
     really
       don't understand much yet!), cedar can work well on smaller lutes,
     A,
       B, C and D ren lutes.
       Unless I'm getting this wrong and red spruce IS different?
       My Englemann soundboard arrived. It's really an excellent piece of
       timber. No run out, or short grain, amazing tap tone, feels lovely
     and
       dry crispy under thumb, and the grain is VERY fine in the area
     where
       the rose is to be cut, which is a plus!
       It's actually the nicest soundboard I've bought yet...I've bought
       several middle grade Alpine spruce boards, non of them have the
     tap
       tone or the lack of short grain this one has. I'm very happy!
       On 17 May 2012 22:57, Tim@Buckeye
     <[1][2][email-masked]>

     wrote:
       James,

         [2][3]http://www.hvgb.net/~tonewood/acousticguitar.htm

       I'm in the middle of building an A lute with one of their
       soundboards. Tap tone is very clear and bright. I don't know how
   the
       lute will sound, but it should be pretty bright.
       Tim
       Sent from my iPhone
     On May 17, 2012, at 8:06 AM, James Jackson

     >   On 16 May 2012 13:35, Louis Aull <[1][4][5][email-masked]>
   wrote:
     >       quality by comparison. I like to use Sitka spruce on ren
   lutes
     for
     >       of mm around the edges for the final sanding to get the
   divots
     in
     >     the
     >       soft wood flat again. It soaks up dirt, stain, and varnish
   like
     a
     >       Is it worth it? To me, no doubt. After my first Englemann
   top,
     I

     [2][5][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
       >
       >   --
       >
       > References
       >
       >   1. mailto:[6][7][email-masked]
       >   2.
     [7][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
       --
     References
       1. mailto:[9][email-masked]
       2. [10]http://www.hvgb.net/~tonewood/acousticguitar.htm
       3. mailto:[11][email-masked]
       4. mailto:[12][email-masked]
       5. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
       6. mailto:[14][email-masked]
       7. [15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --
   Mark Day
   [16]http://neowalla.smugmug.com/
   --

References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]
   2. mailto:[email-masked]
   3. http://www.hvgb.net/%7Etonewood/acousticguitar.htm
   4. mailto:[email-masked]
   5. mailto:[email-masked]
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
   7. mailto:[email-masked]
   8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
   9. mailto:[email-masked]
  10. http://www.hvgb.net/%7Etonewood/acousticguitar.htm
  11. mailto:[email-masked]
  12. mailto:[email-masked]
  13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
  14. mailto:[email-masked]
  15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
  16. http://neowalla.smugmug.com/

---

From: Tim Motz <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 21:36:34 -0400

Yes, two different trees. Red cedar will be much softer. My music teacher (no longer with us, unfortunately) had a lute built by Larry Lundy in the 70s that had a red cedar top and I loved the sound of it. I have a red cedar soundboard that I'm planning to put on a lute to try and duplicate that sound.  

Northern Tonewoods harvests dead standing red spruce in Canada under a license from the Canadian government.  I emailed Dan Larson when I got the idea of using red spruce and he was encouraging. He warned about difficulties in carving the rose because the wood is stiffer than other spruces, but my roses are pretty simple and I didn't notice any particular problems.  I just need to finish the lute so I can hear what it sounds like. 

I should say that I've built two lutes using Englemann spruce and I like that too.  

Tim

Sent from my iPad

---

From: William Samson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 08:03:10 +0100 (BST)

There was a spell in the 70s when WRC tops were very popular in the
   UK.  This was largely down to the luthier Philip Macleod-Coupe, who
   built lutes in all sizes for Tony Rooley and Jim Tyler's "Consort of
   Musick".  These WRC-topped lutes eventually fell out of favour when
   makers decided that 'Swiss pine' (picea abies/excelsa) was the
   'authentic' thing to use and customers demanded it.

   Looking at it objectively, these lutes were wonderful to play - very
   responsive and with a big sound.  I built a half dozen or so myself and
   enjoyed playing them.  On the other hand, it's not nice to have other
   makers/musicians sneering "are you still using these cedar tops?".

   There are a couple of things to remember if you are thinking of using
   WRC - First of all, it is easily dented and needs to be taken care of.
   The second thing is that it must be left a good bit thicker than
   a Swiss Pine top.  Swiss Pine typically has a specific gravity of 0.47
   against WRC's 0.37 so a cedar top should be about 25% thicker than the
   corresponding Swiss Pine top.  I found that thin (1.5mm) WRC tops
   quickly cracked up and that 2mm or even more worked well.

   Jim Tyler's wonderful album "Music for Merchants and Monarchs" was
   played on a WRC-topped archlute.  I don't remember who the maker was,
   but the sound Jim drew from it was breathtaking.

   Bill
   From: Tim Motz <[email-masked]>
   To: Mark Day <[email-masked]>
   Cc: James Jackson <[email-masked]>;
   "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
   Sent: Friday, 18 May 2012, 2:36
   Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Englemann Spruce
   Yes, two different trees. Red cedar will be much softer. My music
   teacher (no longer with us, unfortunately) had a lute built by Larry
   Lundy in the 70s that had a red cedar top and I loved the sound of it.
   I have a red cedar soundboard that I'm planning to put on a lute to try
   and duplicate that sound.
   Northern Tonewoods harvests dead standing red spruce in Canada under a
   license from the Canadian government.  I emailed Dan Larson when I got
   the idea of using red spruce and he was encouraging. He warned about
   difficulties in carving the rose because the wood is stiffer than other
   spruces, but my roses are pretty simple and I didn't notice any
   particular problems.  I just need to finish the lute so I can hear what
   it sounds like.
   I should say that I've built two lutes using Englemann spruce and I
   like that too.
   Tim
   Sent from my iPad
   On May 17, 2012, at 8:55 PM, Mark Day <[1][email-masked]>
   wrote:
   >  <[1][2][email-masked]> wrote:
   >
   >    <[1][2][3][email-masked]>
   >
   >    wrote:
   >      James,
   >        [2][3][4]http://www.hvgb.net/~tonewood/acousticguitar.htm
   >
   >    <[3][4][5][email-masked]> wrote:
   >>  Thanks for your advice,
   >>
   >>  On 16 May 2012 13:35, Louis Aull <[1][4][5][6][email-masked]>
   >  wrote:
   >>
   >>      James,
   >    [2][5][6][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>
   >>  --
   >>
   >> References
   >>
   >>  1. mailto:[6][7][8][email-masked]
   >>  2.
   >    [7][8][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>
   >      --
   >    References
   >      1. mailto:[9][10][email-masked]
   >      2. [10][11]http://www.hvgb.net/~tonewood/acousticguitar.htm
   >      3. mailto:[11][12][email-masked]
   >      4. mailto:[12][13][email-masked]
   >      5.
   [13][14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >      6. mailto:[14][15][email-masked]
   >      7.
   [15][16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   >  --
   >  Mark Day
   >  [16][17]http://neowalla.smugmug.com/
   >  --
   >
   > References
   >
   >  1. mailto:[18][email-masked]
   >  2. mailto:[19][email-masked]
   >  3. [20]http://www.hvgb.net/%7Etonewood/acousticguitar.htm
   >  4. mailto:[21][email-masked]
   >  5. mailto:[22][email-masked]
   >  6. [23]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >  7. mailto:[24][email-masked]
   >  8. [25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >  9. mailto:[26][email-masked]
   >  10. [27]http://www.hvgb.net/%7Etonewood/acousticguitar.htm
   >  11. mailto:[28][email-masked]
   >  12. mailto:[29][email-masked]
   >  13. [30]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >  14. mailto:[31][email-masked]
   >  15. [32]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >  16. [33]http://neowalla.smugmug.com/
   >

   --

References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]
   2. mailto:[email-masked]
   3. mailto:[email-masked]
   4. http://www.hvgb.net/~tonewood/acousticguitar.htm
   5. mailto:[email-masked]
   6. mailto:[email-masked]
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   8. mailto:[email-masked]
   9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  10. mailto:[email-masked]
  11. http://www.hvgb.net/~tonewood/acousticguitar.htm
  12. mailto:[email-masked]
  13. mailto:[email-masked]
  14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  15. mailto:[email-masked]
  16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  17. http://neowalla.smugmug.com/
  18. mailto:[email-masked]
  19. mailto:[email-masked]
  20. http://www.hvgb.net/%7Etonewood/acousticguitar.htm
  21. mailto:[email-masked]
  22. mailto:[email-masked]
  23. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
  24. mailto:[email-masked]
  25. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
  26. mailto:[email-masked]
  27. http://www.hvgb.net/%7Etonewood/acousticguitar.htm
  28. mailto:[email-masked]
  29. mailto:[email-masked]
  30. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
  31. mailto:[email-masked]
  32. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
  33. http://neowalla.smugmug.com/

---

From: Jon Murphy <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 03:46:21 -0400

Spruce and cedar, sycamore and (something else I've forgotten). The 
taxonomy of trees is confused by the local names. The English have 
different local names than Americans (that is the sycamore, and my 
forgotten English name). The pear I turn for hollow forms is not the 
pear of Europe - it is called "non-fruiting pear" locally in NJ, but I'm 
not sure that it isn't aspen.

No quarrel with this thread, just the warning that names can be local.

Best, JOn

On 5/17/2012 9:36 PM, Tim Motz wrote:
> On May 17, 2012, at 8:55 PM, Mark Day<[email-masked]>  wrote:
>
>>>   On 16 May 2012 13:35, Louis Aull<[1][4][5][email-masked]>
>>    wrote:
>>>       James,