Subject: Why no mahogany?

From: William Samson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 19:09:09 +0100 (BST)

Dear Collective Wisdom,

   I see that mahogany is never recommended as a lute building material
   (except perhaps for neck blocks).  I wonder why this should be?  Are
   there no surviving old lutes that used it?  I do know that the
   Jacquemart-Andree vihuela is now believed to have dark mahogany pieces
   in its 'jigsaw' ribs.  Cuban mahogany is not unusual in guitars.

   Mahogany is stable, can be beautiful if it comes from the Carribean or
   Central America, is easy to work . . .  So why isn't it being used now
   and again for lute ribs?

   Just curious.

   Bill Samson

   --

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From: Jon Murphy <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 May 2012 03:18:01 -0400

Bill and Ted,

I think the nature of mahogany would be counter to the needs of the lute 
ribs. I've had mahogany "bodied" guitars, but the form of the lute and 
the sound production is different. As a "joining piece" between the ribs 
it should work, but the resonating body of the lute is different than 
that of the guitar. I'm not a luthier, but have some experience with 
harps. The "stave back" Paraguayan harp is resonating - the Celtic harp 
body is more solid and is more an echo chamber. I think the same might 
apply to lute and guitar. The former wanting a more subtle action from 
the body than the latter.

Sound production is a complex thing in a stringed instrument. The harp 
is unique in that the strings are directly attached to a stressed 
soundboard, whereas the lute, guitar, violin, etc. all pass the 
vibrations through a bridge to the soundboard (and body). But the common 
factor in all is that there are vibrations in the sympathetic strings - 
more in the harp due to the stressed soundboard. The shape of the "empty 
body" affects the sound transmission by the "compressed air" in the 
body, and the resonance of the body affects that.

Wow, what a lot of stuff. My point is that there are competing factors 
between the woods used, the shape of the body, and the attachment of the 
strings. Just look at the violin bridge versus that of the lute or 
guitar. The answer is that there is no answer until someone tries it - 
the theory is yet lagging the practice.

Best, Jon

On 5/2/2012 4:01 PM, Woodford wrote:
> Bill,
> Mahogany as an export timber arrived on the scene fairly late in terms 
> of lute construction.  Very little of it made its way into European 
> cabinetry shops until the 18th century.  Most of the mahogany growing 
> at that time was in areas controlled by Spain and in 1622 Cuban 
> mahogany was declared a royal monopoly for use in ship building.
>
> As a rib material the fibrous, deeply pored structure is kind of at 
> odds with most of the traditional choices like maple, ebony, ivory and 
> yew.  I don't see why it couldn't be used, and I'm almost certain I've 
> seen an oud or two that employed it.
>
> Central American and Cuban mahoganies are now listed under the CITES 
> treaty as endangered and moving the material across borders is getting 
> difficult.
>
> Cheers,
> Ted
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Samson" 
> <[email-masked]>
> To: <[email-masked]>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 2:09 PM
> Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Why no mahogany?
>
>
>>   Dear Collective Wisdom,
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 
>
>
>

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From: Mustafa Umut Sarac <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 11:28:27 +0300

Mahagony widely used at Gibson Les Paul electric guitars and
   Rickenbacker basses. All these instruments are deepest godly sounding
   instruments with lots of sustain. I dont think there is a room for this
   wood at lute construction. And it is very heavy and color is hot  with
   deep pores and ability to warp quickly. It has a very high percentage
   of oil inside also.

   Heavier the wood , harder it resonates. Its sound is truly reverse of
   maple.

   Umut

   --

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From: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 10:10:38 +0100 (BST)

Dear Bill,

   Never used the material for ribs and the like, but a few random
   thoughts come to mind:

   There are, of course, many types of mahogany and not all are classed as
   'true' mahogany so we must be careful about over-generalising but
   having said that, compared to maple/sycamore it seems to me generally
   more fibrous but oddly less resistant to splitting especially in thin
   sections like lute ribs (even where carefully quarter sawn). I think
   this may be a feature of its cell tube size and construction (altho'
   oak which also has large pores/tubes seems very durable and split
   resistant - but also not used for ribs). It does take glue well, but I
   wonder if its porous nature weakens a rib joint where the size of the
   pores are significant compared to the rib thickness?...

   I have an early 19th century guitar with sides (roughly about 1.5mm)
   made out of mahogany and the sides have split into many long slivers -
   ie lengthwise with the grain - so much so that I can't be bothered
   repairing it!

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Wed, 2/5/12, William Samson <[email-masked]> wrote:

     From: William Samson <[email-masked]>
     Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Why no mahogany?
     To: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
     Date: Wednesday, 2 May, 2012, 19:09

      Dear Collective Wisdom,
      I see that mahogany is never recommended as a lute building material
      (except perhaps for neck blocks).  I wonder why this should be?  Are
      there no surviving old lutes that used it?  I do know that the
      Jacquemart-Andree vihuela is now believed to have dark mahogany
   pieces
      in its 'jigsaw' ribs.  Cuban mahogany is not unusual in guitars.
      Mahogany is stable, can be beautiful if it comes from the Carribean
   or
      Central America, is easy to work . . .  So why isn't it being used
   now
      and again for lute ribs?
      Just curious.
      Bill Samson
      --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: Mustafa Umut Sarac <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 15:45:23 +0300

There are 48 different mahagony. Gibson and Rickenbacker uses Khaya.
   Pores might not effect the adhesion reverse add more resistance. Most
   important thing is the sound , you cant get short lots of harmonics
   from it. It amps the strings bass spectrum.

   Its a true wood for non resonating cavity solid instruments , it mimics
   the acoustic box with its sound spectrum.

   In Turkey , there are bigger availability of African woods and lute
   makers tried them a lot but sound strange. Every instrument evolves in
   the history with time tested woods. If you use one of the mahagony , it
   will be an instrument but not lute. Its like printing your photographs
   with modern inkjet technology but name them alternative technology.
   Whatever you call it , it will be not like film and photographic paper.
   Originality counts at arts.

   Umut

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