Subject: Re: [LUTE-BUILDER] Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?

From: William Samson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 11:38:50 +0000 (GMT)

I don't suppose we'll ever know for sure, unless somebody comes across
   a well-preserved, accurately dated stash of old lute strings - or
   perhaps they have all decayed/rotted?

   Still, interesting views are being expressed.  I suppose what we should
   all be doing is trying to produce as good a musical sound (to our own
   ears at least) as we can, using what's available to us.  In all
   probability it will be different from what was admired at the time, but
   short of discovering time-travel, there's not much we can do about
   finding out how it actually did sound back then.  I'd bet, though, that
   it would sound quite 'eccentric' to our ears.

   Bill
   From: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
   To: Lute builder Dmth <[email-masked]>
   Sent: Wednesday, 28 November 2012, 8:57
   Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone
   to rot according to Mace?
     When you write  'The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured
     strings on the basses of lutes.......',  what do you mean by
     'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so
     precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?;
   better
     than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than what?
     And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence and
     historical record?
     MH
     --- On Wed, 28/11/12, Shaun Ng <[1][email-masked]> wrote:
       From: Shaun Ng <[2][email-masked]>
       Subject: [LUTE] Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
       To: "<[3][email-masked]>" <[4][email-masked]>
       Cc: "<[5][email-masked]>" <[6][email-masked]>
       Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 0:45
     Just a short comment: I recently did some research on historical
     stringing and in regards to pistoy loaded strings, there is no
     evidence. The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings
     on the basses of lutes is wound strings. At least we know such a
     technology existed, even though their mention mostly comes a bit too
     late when we compare paintings of the time, which is not a good way
   to
     get credible information about musical instruments anyway.
     Shaun Ng
     0426240 775 | [1][7][email-masked] | shaunng.blogspot.com
     On 28/11/2012, at 5:35, <[2][8][email-masked]> wrote:
     > Dear Anthony,
     >
     > Once more my apologies for such a hiatus in writing. As I said
     before, the
     > change of internet provider caused a lot of connection problems,
   and
     then
     > traveling (a concert tour) didn't give me a chance to write longer
     messages.
     > I'll try to catch up now, so please excuse me if I write too long.
     > You touched a couple of related topics in your last email, so I
   will
     try to
     > address them separately.
     >
     > ROTTEN GUT
     >
     > Obviously the word "rotten" can have at least 2 meanings, however I
     am
     > afraid in this case Mace very clearly writes about decay of gut
     strings.
     > Just one example:
     >
     > "for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the DECAY
   of
     the
     > string"
     >
     > The word "decay" reappears several times in the technical part of
     Music's
     > Monument, always in conjunction with the word "rottenness". This
     can't be
     > coincidental.
     > Now, one can consider why it is so difficult for us to accept that
     decay
     > process of a gut string could be real. I can see two reasons,
   namely:
     1/
     > none of us saw a rotting gut  2/ Mace is viewed as a very eccentric
     man
     > thence unreliable source of historical information.
     > I would like to challenge both of these notions.
     >
     > 1/ Is this possible for a gut to decay? Gut is an organic substance
     so if
     > unprotected it would start to decay very fast. Modern gut strings
   are
     very
     > well chemically protected against such a possibility. In Mace times
     gut was
     > treated with Griepoli i.e. tartar and a small quantity of Roch
   Allum
     (as
     > Philip Skippon an English traveller who visited an Italian string
     > manufacture testifies in 1663). In general gut absorbs humidity
   very
     easily
     > during which process it swells putting on some weight and volume.
   The
     porous
     > structure of gut and the way strands are assembled into a string
     makes it
     > even more susceptible to decay. Now, if we try to recreate
   conditions
     that
     > people were used to live in an average English household in 17c.
     (maybe
     > excluding aristocracy), and Mace was not a wealthy man, it is not
     difficult
     > to imagine that walls of such a building that had never seen a
     central
     > heating system would be prone to keep constant humidity inside. In
     that
     > light Mace's advice to keep a lute in the room with fireplace and
     even his
     > amusing remark to wrap it in blankets seems to be quite practical.
   We
     don't
     > know what was the climate in 17c., but we can easily assume that in
     England
     > it would be definitely humid. Mace's remarks seem to confirm this:
     "for the
     > bed will dry up all the moisture and clamminess, which moist
   weather
     > constantly ocassions to any thing made of wood etc." I can only try
     to
     > imagine that clammy furniture and other wooden things. Therefore
   Mace
     says
     > that old lutes are better than new because: "if this
     > thick-strong-lusty-sturdy-oak will (in 100 years) decay, by such
     usage; how
     > much more easily then, must a lute (made of gentle wood, and so
   very
     thin)
     > with such like ill usage decay? Yet we see, that many lutes there
   are
     of a
     > great age and I myself have at this present a lute made of ayre,
   that
     is
     > above 100 years old, a very strong lute..." To complement this
     picture one
     > has to add the level of hygiene and knowledge of elementary
     microbiological
     > processes during that time. We don't even know under what
   conditions
     strings
     > were transported and stored before selling by merchants.
     > I am not surprised Mace writes a lot about rotting strings and even
     whole
     > instruments.
     >
     > COLOURED STRINGS
     >
     > Since I began to play lutes which was many years ago, the passage
     from
     > chapter VI p.65-66, was always interpreted one way, suggesting that
     the red
     > colour of Pistoys is something different than gut colours described
     further
     > under a heading of "coloured strings". I don't know who was the
     initial
     > source of this information, but it must have been suggested very
   long
     time
     > ago. Unfortunately, as usual in such cases, people repeat ideas
     without
     > considering another possibilities.
     >
     > Mace writes: "There are several sorts of coloured strings, very
   good;
     But
     > the best (to my observation) was always the clear blue; the red,
     commonly
     > rotten, sometimes green very good."
     >
     > Lets presume that as you suggest he is talking only about some
   shades
     of
     > clear gut strings. Now, I have to ask this question - have you ever
     seen a
     > clear gut string which would have a blue, green or red shade ? Hm,
   I
     haven't,
     > and I am afraid this is not the same type of question as - have you
     ever
     > seen decaying gut string. Why? Because decay of a gut is possible
   and
     it's
     > only a matter of some conditions that could trigger this process,
     whereas
     > such a palette of colours understood as a raw gut shading (without
     any
     > additional procedure like dyeing) is very unlikely, because we use
     very
     > similar if not identical processes to make HT or LT gut strings. I
     have seen
     > only gut strings that were either clear, yellowish or whitish.
     Besides the
     > heading of this paragraph would be something like "Minikins" if
   Mace
     had
     > thought of clear trebles. On the other hand the process of dyeing
     strings in
     > 17-18c. seams to be proved at least for harps. If for harps, why
   not
     for
     > lutes? Mace clearly writes that bass strings were: "commonly dyed,
     with a
     > deep dark red colour". If basses were coloured then other strings
     could be
     > dyed too, as some iconography confirms like Van der Bilcius's
     painting.
     > Strings could have been dyed for several reasons: 1/ some
     manufactures could
     > want to stand out from a competition 2/ for ease of playing
   (finding
     a
     > proper string with a finger) especially for beginners (amateurs) 3/
     for
     > aesthetic reasons etc.
     > I don't know why dyed strings for lutes are so rare nowadays. As
   far
     as I
     > know Dan sells some red gut strings, but no other colours (anyone
     ells?).
     > Why aren't they more popular? They would sell easily IMO. Maybe
     that's an
     > idea for some string manufactures?
     >
     > PISTOYS
     >
     > "There is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses,
     which I
     > conceive are none other than thick Venice-Catlines, which are
     commonly dyed,
     > with a deep dark red colour. They are indeed the very best for the
     basses,
     > being smooth and well-twisted strings, but are hard to come by;" MM
     p.66
     >
     > This passage is often quoted in the context of loaded strings. Mace
     calls
     > this another sort of strings Pistoy basses and suggests that they
   are
     (and
     > this part draws my attention) "none other than thick
     Venice-Catlines". Why
     > "none other than"? Maybe because they were imported and people
   didn't
     know
     > how they were produced so they speculated about it. However for
   Mace
     they
     > looked and worked exactly like thick Venice-Catlines. Normaly
     > Venice-Catlines were manufactured in Bologna, but then transported
   to
     Venice
     > (that's why the name Venice). The "Catline" part of the name comes
     from
     > naval terminology. Catline on a ship was a very elastic rope used
   to
     lash an
     > anchor to a "cathead" which was a special beam. The rope had to be
     extremely
     > flexible. Therefore they were twisted from several ropes in
   opposite
     > directions. Very similar construction was later used for production
     of
     > middle register lute strings. Not much was written about their use
     for
     > basses though, however Mace's statement could correspond well with
     George
     > Stoppani's idea of rope strings. Ephraim Segerman suggested once
   that
     to
     > make a proper Venice-Catline bass string one would have to use a
     special
     > Catline twisting process. Only this could produce an extremely
     elastic
     > Catline rope-like string. Normally I use Venice-Catlines for middle
     > register, but haven't tried Stoppani's or Gamut's Pistoys for
   basses
     yet.
     > However  some reports are very promising.
     > How about a deep dark red colour? Mace claims they were commonly
     dyed. He
     > hadn't noticed anything unusual about them like rare thickness,
     > construction, weight etc.
     > Then, how about loading?
     >
     > LOADED STRINGS
     >
     > Nothing can be excluded just by reading MM, but there are no traces
     that
     > could point to loading in Mace's text. Personally I don't think the
     sentence
     > about Pistoys can be used as an argument in favour of loaded gut
     theory.
     > Pistoy (thick Venice-Catline) roped string is good enough to cope
     with a
     > problem of dull sounding basses, and loading is not necessary in
   this
     case.
     > It could however have been loaded during light saturation process
     which was
     > to protect against decay, but this is only a guess as Mace says
     nothing
     > about it. The historical evidence on string manufacturing doesn't
     help
     > either.
     > There is a very detailed description of gut string manufacturing in
     18c.
     > France in "Encyclopedie ou dictionnaire raisonne de sciences, des
     arts et
     > des metiers" by Denis Diderot and Jean le Rond D'Alembert from
     1751-65,
     > under an entry of Boyaudier or Corde. It describes even
   over-spinning
     of gut
     > with a wire. All stages from a raw material to a ready string are
     covered
     > including such details as clothes used by workers during production
     and  all
     > needed accessories. Unfortunately there is no mention of a
   "loading"
     stage.
     > It would be quite difficult to keep away such a messy business as
     loading
     > from an inquisitive eye of Diderot. It is possible that after 1750
     loaded
     > strings were already out of use as overwound basses were
   manufactured
     as he
     > describes their production in detail. However he also  says that
   the
     best
     > strings come from Rome, and later that Italians have their secrets,
     which
     > they do not communicate to strangers. On the other hand neither
     Barbieri's
     > (as you rightly pointed out) nor Philip Skippon's description of
   gut
     > production in Italy confirms this. This could indicate that in
   Italy
     it
     > would be rather a speciality treatment kept in secret but not a
     common
     > procedure.
     > All in all, coming back to my question concerning a connection
     between red
     > colour of strings Mace described, loading and decay, I'd say that
   the
     > strings he described weren't loaded, or if they were it was rather
     > non-invasive process which didn't change the string properties in a
     way it
     > would be visible to an eye (like unusual diameter). At least Mace
     haven't
     > noticed it. One could say that he didn't mention it because it was
     obvious
     > that all basses would be loaded. This is exactly the point were my
     question
     > originated from. If bridge holes on his lute were so tiny that he
     could use
     > only heavily loaded bass strings, then how was it possible that he
     used
     > Lyons which were ordinary thick gut strings often rotten (according
     to Mace
     > , not loaded) interchangeably with Pistoys (which are suggested to
   be
     > loaded) ? Moreover Diderot's description coincide with Lady Susi
     Jeans's in
     > "Manufacture of strings in England". Again, no sign of loading. I
   am
     not
     > trying to say that the loaded gut theory can't be true. On the
     contrary,
     > modern loaded gut strings are good alternative for basses in case
   of
     > stringing some 17c. lutes, no matter how they will prove to be
     historical in
     > future. We discuss only Mace's remarks, and these are only some of
   my
     > impressions after reading chapter VI of MM once more.
     >
     > ECCENTRIC MACE
     >
     > This a very difficult subject. There is a little bit of psychology
     and
     > philosophy in it ,so probably someone that is a professional could
     say much
     > more (and better) than me, but I have a feeling that it's very
     relative.
     > Reading a book such as  Music's Monument is like time-traveling.
   You
     go back
     > in time, and the same time you enter absolutely unknown reality.
   You
     try to
     > project your experiences into the past, but unfortunately it
   doesn't
     work.
     > Well, you may think it does, but it doesn't.
     > Eccentricity is usually measured by a comparison to the general
     public's
     > standards. If you compared Mace to our modern society he would be
     terribly
     > eccentric. We are used to reading of old texts, and in spite they
     feel very
     > old-fashioned there is some level of universalism that one can
   relate
     to. In
     > most books from that time there are things that a modern reader
   would
     most
     > probably skip. When Burwell writes on many pages about Angels, the
     most
     > usual reaction would be that she is a little bit potty in this
     matter, but
     > in general it's easier to accept some unusual believes as most
   people
     know
     > something about basic concepts of spiritual life in old ages.
   However
     Music's
     > Monument is more unique as it is more personal. It shows Mace's
   most
     > personal views and ideas. One of the reasons for that is that
   Music's
     > Monument wasn't written just for one rich sponsor (which would be a
     normal
     > way to go) like a king/queen, prince/princesse etc. He wrote it
     encouraged
     > by some of his pupils, and printed using his own means and those
     collected
     > from subscribers, however he says: "It cannot well be afforded at
     that price
     > (12s.), to return me any tollerable, or reasonable requital."
     > On the subscription list there are around 300 names among which
   there
     are
     > only 2 barons, 4 baronets, 2 bishops, 4 knights - the rest being
     scholars,
     > clergyman and ordinary gentleman. Not writing for a court he took a
     > different attitude: "But if I had only to have spoke to those of
     experience
     > and to show the elegancy of my tongue, I should have contriv'd my
     discourse
     > into another shape; But in that I intend it chiefly for learners, I
     conceive
     > I have not spoke much too much." If he was to write for a king he
     would be
     > afraid of saying much too much, and eccentricity of his book would
   be
     > comparable to some French tutors written for a court.
     >
     > Therefore, when reading Music's Monument one has to remember that
   if
     we were
     > allowed to spend just an hour in the reality people in 17c. lived
   in,
     we
     > would be extremely surprised by some standards they were used to.
   It
     is in
     > fact like traveling to another planet, and we can not do justice to
     this
     > kind of sources without making some necessary adjustments.
     >
     > It was a pleasure to talk to you again Anthony.
     >
     > Best regards
     >
     > Jaroslaw
     >
     >
     >
     > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Hind"
     <[3][9][email-masked]>
     > To: "JarosAA'aw Lipski" <[4][10][email-masked]>
     > Cc: <[5][11][email-masked]>
     > Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2012 1:19 PM
     > Subject: [LUTE] Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
     >
     >
     >> Dear Jaroslaw
     >> A' A' A' A' As promised, back now in Paris, I will try to
     >> respond, with a few new thoughts on Mace's string remarks, along
     with
     >> the old, as when we talked last at
     >> [6][12]http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2
     >> MaceA-c-s remarks can be found at
     >> [7][13]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm
     >> But the CNRS facsimile is such a bargain, every lutenist should
     surely have
     >> one; unless, like a lute maker I know, you are lucky enough to be
     given
     >> an original edition for your birthday ...
     >> %
     >> First, I must say that my previous message, about loaded strings
     being fairly
     >> immune to humidity, only concerned modern loaded strings, which
   are
     >> coated with copper in a sort of glue. If historic "deep dark red"
     >> Pistoys had been loaded through saturation, with say a solution of
     red
     >> mercury oxide (akin to a dyeing procin to a dyeing process), I
     donA-c-t know if they would
     >> have been quite so immune to water absorption. But probably oxide
     >> loading (rather like salting hams) might have prevented them
     rotting, or
     >> at leastA' slowed the process down (are there any chemists among
   you
     who
     >> could say if this is likely?).
     >> %
     >> I will reply to your messages, but breaking up my responses to
     lighten the load:
     >> I) Why MaceA-c-s Pistoy Basses dyed Deep dark red are quite
     different from
     >> his omnipurpose plain red coloured strings, and are not therefore
     >> particularly prone to rotting according to Mace.
     >> II) How reliable, and not just excentric, is Mace, a few arguments
     in his favour?
     >> A) Meanes used for octaves? B) Why were the Lyons Burwell thought
   so
     good,
     >> now so bad, according to Mace? (some data on out sourcing from
     >> Barbieri)
     >> %
     >> I) Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
     >> In relation to the rotting tendency of red strings, you ask me,
     >> A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' "how will you explain a
     quote from Mace p.66:
     >>> A' A' "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish color very
     good; yet but
     >>> A' A' seldom; for that color is a general sign of rottenness, or
   of
     the decay
     >>> A' A' of the string. There are several sorts of colored strings,
     very good;
     >>> A' A' but the best was always the clear blue; the red commonly
     rotten."
     >>> A' A' As far as I understand red color is a most popular color of
     loaded
     >>> A' A' string. If this is so, how then they could be commonly
     rotten?" Jaroslaw
     >> Perhaps the "underlying" question, here (please tell me if I am
     wrong), is
     >> whether, when Mace describes Red coloured strings as "commonly
     rotten"
     >> (your quote above), he is including in this description, all red
     strings
     >> without exception (dyed or coloured), even those from Pistoy,
   which
     are
     >> dyedA' "deep dark red". In other words, is he saying Pistoys are
     >> commonly rotten? and if so, would this rule them out as being
   loaded
     >> strings?
     >> %
     >> Here, is my reasoning: Mace had a very strong preoccupation with
     rotten gut,
     >> clearly from personal experience (althoughxperience (although I
   have
     never encountered this
     >> problem), and he therefore gives detailed advice on how to store
     >> strings to make sure they don't "take any wet, or moist air."
     Further,
     >> whenever he mentions a string liable to rot, he immediately states
     this
     >> within the next few sentences, as in all these cases :
     >> "There is a small sort of lyons, which many use for the Octaves.
   But
     I care
     >> not for them, they being constantly rotten, and good for little,
   but
     to
     >> make frets of."
     >> (...)
     >> "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good;
     yet, but
     >> seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the
     decay
     >> of the string."
     >> (...)
     >> "There are several sorts of coloured strings, very good; But the
     best (to my
     >> observation) was always the clear Blue; the Red, commonly rotten,
     >> sometimes green, very good."
     >> %
     >> It would therefore be very surprising if he had not done the same
     for
     >> Pistoy Basses, if he had really thought they were often rotten,
     >> especially as they were rare. Why allow a student to waste time
     >> searching them out, if they are both rare, and often rottenA' ?
   But
     he
     >> only speaks of their excellent quality (next to the heading, "And
     what
     >> sort of strings are best?"), and clearly contrasts them with the
     >> inferior Lyons, "They are indeed the very best, for the basses,
     being
     >> smooth and well twisted strings, but are hard to come by; however
     out of
     >> a good parcel of Lyons strings, you may (with care) pick those
   which
     >> serve very well." Wouldn't he have immediately (within the next
   few
     >> sentences) warned the reader about this danger, if there had been
     any;
     >> but follows a number of paragraphs, in which he explains "How to
     chuse
     >> your strings", giving rules for choosingA' Minikins, Venice
   Catlins,
     and
     >> Lyons, but not for Pistoys, presumably either because they are too
     rare,
     >> or because they are always good, in which case just the "deep dark
     >> red", is sign enough to vouch for this stringA-c-s quality. During
     these
     >> explanations, he again insists that Lyons basses are inferior ey
   are
     much more inferior strings than the other", but he does
     >> not extend this criticism to Pistoys, which seem therefore to be
     >> unparalleled in quality (indeed "the other" may actually be
     referring
     >> back to "Pistoys", the other type of bass string).
     >> %
     >> Finally, under the completely new heading "Coloured strings", he
     talks of
     >> yellowish, clear blue, red, and green strings, without giving any
     >> indication of their use (while for all strings with a name which
   at
     >> least originally implied a provenance, Minikin, Venices, Lyons,
   and
     >> Pistoys, he took great care to discuss their uses. In this he does
     >> exactly the same as Dowland, who mentions the same colours., but
     gives
     >> no indication of their use (while he does for other string
   types)A'
     :
     >> "Some strings there are which are coloured, out of which choose
   the
     lightest
     >> colours, viz. among the Greene choose the Sea- water, of Red the
     >> Carnation, and of Blew the Watchet." Dowland (VLL, 1610, sig.Dv.)
     >> [8][14]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm
     >> %
     >> I suppose there are three possible interpretations for this,A' :
   1)
     the
     >> colours discussed could be a natural coloration that can effect
   ANY
     >> string type, except possibly Pistoys which are dyed dark red
   already
     >> (indeed there are naturally coloured yellow, and brown strings, I
     have
     >> yellow and brown Venices, there are also red and black, but
   perhaps
     not
     >> green and blueA' ?); 2) they could be omnipurpose strings coloured
     simply
     >> for decorative use, for making an interesting pattern; 3) they
   could
     be
     >> general purpose strings that were coloured to work as position
     markers,
     >> just as with the synthetic harp strings shown here:
     >> Position marking coloured synthetic harp strings:
     >> [9][15]http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l
     >> as indeed, Dan Larson can do for Lyons; here is an example of
     coloured theorbo strings.
     >> Position marking coloured gut theorbo strings:
     >> [10][16]http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6
     >> In all these cases above the red strings are not restricted to
     basses, as they are in this one below:
     >> Loaded basses, a modern lute strung in loaded Venices:
     >> [11][17]http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg
     >> A mixed case: before I had all loaded basses, I did tend to use my
     Gimped
     >> 7c as a position marker, while the colour from 8c down to 11c were
     just
     >> loaded basses :
     >> [12][18]http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7
     >> %
     >> Does the iconography show similar patterns for historic lutes?
     >> See [13][19]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf
     >> There is a possible example of case 2, decorative use on P. 62/102
     (of text
     >> above) Bilcius (?), 2nd half of the 17th C. detail of the bridge
   of
     a 12
     >> course (but I have no modern example of this decorative use).
     >> A' An example of case 3 position marker, could be RubensA-c- Lute
     player:
     >> [14][20]http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf
     >> Ambiguous situation (case 2 or 3?), see P64/102 A-c-Dyed strings
   for
     aesthetical purposesA-c- MP
     >> [15][21]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf
     >> It would be difficult to differentiate use (2) and (3) with
     iconography,
     >> and nothing could prevent a luthenist just using any colour he
     happened
     >> to have for any position, with no aesthetic or other intention
   what
     ever.
     >> Contrast these with the red basses, presumably Pistoys, shown
   here:
     >> [16][22]http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b
     >> %
     >> Now all I can conclude from Mace, is that Pistoys dyed deep dark
   red
     were
     >> the very best basses of his time. We can not directly conclude
   from
     this
     >> that they were loaded, but it is highly likely they underwent some
     sort
     >> of special dyeing process, which, if loading with mercury salts
   was
     >> involved, would be an integral part of their bass string quality;
     but
     >> conceivably it could also be the result of a curing preservation
     process
     >> involving these same oxides, or the same chemicals usedA' just to
     >> distinguish them from any other bass string types (as a sort of
   seal
     of
     >> quality), but possibly all three purposes came together.
     >> They were probably rare compared to Lyons (see IInd part) and
     therefore
     >> appear only on some of the best or most wealthy playerA-c-s lutes
     (Charles
     >> Mouton for example).
     >> We can not expect to be able to recognize loading (over other
     purposes) in a
     >> painting (indeed it is hard to distinguish in the photos above);
     even
     >> if, in the hand, they might look and feel very different from the
     simple
     >> red coloured strings.
     >> We only have indirect evidence for loading: the small bridge
   holes,
     descriptions
     >> of bass strings having been quite loud, and yet the French lutes
     being
     >> quite small (Charles Mouton), all this, including the colour,
   makes
     >> loading a plausible hypothesis, but that has not been entirely
     proved,
     >> there are just strong indications.
     >> To go further than this, we would need to discover a list of
     chemicals
     >> including mercury salts, etc, in the atelier of a string maker, or
     >> similar chemical deposits. To my knowledge this has not been
   found,
     as
     >> yet (Barbieri did not find such data in Roman ateliers).
     >> %
     >> This is just my non-specialist musings around the data, Jaroslaw,
     but I have very much enjoyed thinking about all this again.
     >> %
     >> Regards
     >> Anthony
     >> A'
     >> A' A' A' A' DeA' : JarosAe^1aw Lipski
   <[17][23][email-masked]>
     >> Ae'A' : Anthony Hind <[18][24][email-masked]>
     >> EnvoyAe'AA  le : Samedi 6 octobre 2012 23h49
     >> ObjetA' : Re: [LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the
     movement of the whole lute
     >>
     >> Dear Anthony,
     >>
     >> I understood from MP's website that one of the strong arguments
   for
     >> loaded basses is iconography which quite consistently shows red or
     >> brown-red bass strings, which are supposed to had been loaded
   using
     >> oxides of lead, copper, iron etc. We know from pictures that
   mainly
     >> basses were red or reddish and if they were only dyed (as Mace
     >> described), how can one discern them from loaded strings, and how
     one
     >> can take iconography as an evidence of loading if there is no
     difference
     >> between 2 types of strings on paintings? From Mace's descriptionA'
   I
     get
     >> an impression that he talks about ordinary red dyed guts:
     >> "There
     >> is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, which I
     >> conceive are none other then thick Venice-catlines, which are
     commonly
     >> dyed, with a deep dark red color"
     >> The same person
     >> writes
     >> on the same page that red colored strings are commonly rotten. For
     me
     >> it signifies that they were rather normally dyed, but not loaded.
     >> Obviously there is an argument about bridge holes etc, but I
     wouldn't
     >> like to return to our old discussion which in my opinion is quite
     >> difficult to solve at the moment without any new data.
     >> Meanwhile
     >> (returning to our topic), I don't think one needs to prove
     superiority
     >> of one string material over another. Everything has its advantages
     and
     >> disadvantages.
     >> Nice to hear from you too.
     >> Best wishes
     >>
     >> Jaroslaw
     >>
     >> P.S. I am not against loaded bass theory, I'm just trying to asses
     all information objectively.
     >>
     >>
     >> WiadomoAe^1A" napisana przez Anthony Hind w dniu 6 paAe^1AAY 2012,
   o
     godz. 22:13:
     >>
     >>> A' A' Oh I was only speaking about modern loaded strings, that at
     present are
     >>> A' A' covered in the copper loading.
     >>> A' A' I don't know what would happen with loading by saturation
   of
     >> an oxide,
     >>> A' A' although presumably that
     >>> A' A' should also prevent rotting. Oxide loading, however, could
     result in
     >>> A' A' various colours.
     >>> A' A' But according to Charles Besnainou thick untreated gut can
     also be
     >>> A' A' reddish or yellowish in hue.
     >>> A' A' I don't think colour is necessarilly always a sign of
     loading. Aren't
     >>> A' A' Georges Stoppani's strings rather red.
     >>> A' A' I am not of course suggesting tht they are prone to rot,
   but
     nor are
     >>> A' A' they loaded (although he may have made a few in
   experiments).
     >>> A' A' Nice to hear from you again
     >>> A' A' Best wishes
     >>> A' A' Anthony
     >>> A' A' A'
     __________________________________________________________________
     --
   References
     1.
   [25]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
     2.
   [26]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
     3.
   [27]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
     4.
   [28]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
     5.
   [29]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
     6. [30]http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2
     7. [31]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm
     8. [32]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm
     9. [33]http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l
     10. [34]http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6
     11. [35]http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg
     12. [36]http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7
     13. [37]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf
     14. [38]http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf
     15. [39]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf
     16. [40]http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b
     17.
   [41]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
     18.
   [42]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [43]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]
   2. mailto:[email-masked]
   3. mailto:[email-masked]
   4. mailto:[email-masked]
   5. mailto:[email-masked]
   6. mailto:[email-masked]
   7. mailto:[email-masked]
   8. mailto:[email-masked]
   9. mailto:[email-masked]
  10. mailto:[email-masked]
  11. mailto:[email-masked]
  12. http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2
  13. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm
  14. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm
  15. http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l
  16. http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6
  17. http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg
  18. http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7
  19. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf
  20. http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf
  21. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf
  22. http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b
  23. mailto:[email-masked]
  24. mailto:[email-masked]
  25. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  26. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  27. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  28. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  29. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  30. http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2
  31. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm
  32. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm
  33. http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l
  34. http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6
  35. http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg
  36. http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7
  37. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf
  38. http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf
  39. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf
  40. http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b
  41. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  42. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  43. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 15:20:46 +0000 (GMT)

Dear Bill,

   I meant to send the email to the lute list but pressed the wrong button
   - I've rectified this now.

   As you say it's unlikely we'll know for absolute certain - but I think
   we can be pretty sure (95%+?) that before 1660 wire wounds were unknown
   (tho' of course, twisted/braided wire was used for wire strung
   instrument basses since the 16th century) and so paintings showing
   coloured basses represent simple colouring effects or something else:
   loading perhaps. Because of the limitation of string diameters on some
   original bridges (and shown in some of the clearer paintings) I favour
   denser basses which implies loaded strings. But they may have been
   happy with a rubber band feel in the bass even when plucked at the
   bridge - tho clearly there was an awareness that basses might be too
   weak (hence theorbos etc).... No need to go over the story again here
   but its more a matter of the weight of evidence rather than a
   categorical proof - ie more civil court than criminal court burden of
   proof.

   So I don't think we need be so pessimistic as to think  'In
   all probability it will be different from what was admired at the time'
   since the weight of evidence does indicate much.  And this is the
   history of such research - incremental steps.

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Wed, 28/11/12, William Samson <[email-masked]> wrote:

     From: William Samson <[email-masked]>
     Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys
     prone to rot according to Mace?
     To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email-masked]>, "Lute builder
     Dmth" <[email-masked]>
     Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 11:38

      I don't suppose we'll ever know for sure, unless somebody comes
   across
      a well-preserved, accurately dated stash of old lute strings - or
      perhaps they have all decayed/rotted?
      Still, interesting views are being expressed.  I suppose what we
   should
      all be doing is trying to produce as good a musical sound (to our
   own
      ears at least) as we can, using what's available to us.  In all
      probability it will be different from what was admired at the time,
   but
      short of discovering time-travel, there's not much we can do about
      finding out how it actually did sound back then.  I'd bet, though,
   that
      it would sound quite 'eccentric' to our ears.
      Bill
      From: Martyn Hodgson <[1][email-masked]>
      To: Lute builder Dmth <[2][email-masked]>
      Sent: Wednesday, 28 November 2012, 8:57
      Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys
   prone
      to rot according to Mace?
        When you write  'The better explanation for seemingly thin,
   coloured
        strings on the basses of lutes.......',  what do you mean by
        'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so
        precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?;
      better
        than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than
   what?
        And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence and
        historical record?
        MH
        --- On Wed, 28/11/12, Shaun Ng <[1][3][email-masked]> wrote:
          From: Shaun Ng <[2][4][email-masked]>
          Subject: [LUTE] Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
          To: "<[3][5][email-masked]>" <[4][6][email-masked]>
          Cc: "<[5][7][email-masked]>"
   <[6][8][email-masked]>
          Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 0:45
        Just a short comment: I recently did some research on historical
        stringing and in regards to pistoy loaded strings, there is no
        evidence. The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured
   strings
        on the basses of lutes is wound strings. At least we know such a
        technology existed, even though their mention mostly comes a bit
   too
        late when we compare paintings of the time, which is not a good
   way
      to
        get credible information about musical instruments anyway.
        Shaun Ng
        0426240 775 | [1][7][9][email-masked] | shaunng.blogspot.com
        before, the
      and
        then
        messages.
      will
        try to
        am
        strings.
      of
        the
        Music's
        can't be
        decay
      namely:
        1/
        man
        so if
      are
        very
        gut was
      Allum
        (as
      very
        easily
      The
        porous
        makes it
      conditions
        that
        (maybe
        difficult
        central
        that
        even his
      We
        don't
        England
        "for the
      weather
        to
      Mace
        says
        usage; how
      very
        thin)
      are
        of a
      that
        is
        picture one
        microbiological
      conditions
        strings
        whole
        from
        the red
        further
        initial
      long
        time
        without
      good;
        But
        commonly
      shades
        of
        seen a
      I
        haven't,
        ever
      and
        it's
        whereas
        any
        very
        have seen
        Besides the
      Mace
        had
        strings in
      not
        for
        with a
        could be
        painting.
        manufactures could
      (finding
        a
        for
      far
        as I
        ells?).
        that's an
        which I
        commonly dyed,
        basses,
        p.66
        calls
      are
        (and
        Venice-Catlines". Why
      didn't
        know
      Mace
        they
      to
        Venice
        from
      to
        lash an
        extremely
      opposite
        of
        for
        George
      that
        to
        special
        elastic
      basses
        yet.
        dyed. He
        that
        sentence
        theory.
        with a
      this
        case.
        which was
        nothing
        help
        18c.
        arts et
        1751-65,
      over-spinning
        of gut
        covered
        and  all
      "loading"
        stage.
        loading
        loaded
      manufactured
        as he
      the
        best
        which
        Barbieri's
      gut
      Italy
        it
        common
        between red
      the
        way it
        haven't
        obvious
        question
        could use
        used
        to Mace
      be
        Jeans's in
      am
        not
        contrary,
      of
        historical in
      my
        and
        say much
        relative.
      You
        go back
      You
        try to
      doesn't
        work.
        public's
        terribly
        feel very
      relate
        to. In
      would
        most
        most
        matter, but
      people
        know
      However
        Music's
      most
      Music's
        normal
        encouraged
        collected
        that price
      there
        are
        scholars,
        experience
        discourse
        conceive
        would be
      be
      if
        we were
      in,
        we
      It
        is in
        this
        > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Hind"
        <[3][9][11][email-masked]>
        > To: "JarosAA'aw Lipski" <[4][10][12][email-masked]>
        > Cc: <[5][11][13][email-masked]>
        with
        >> [6][12][14]http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2
        >> [7][13][15]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm
        surely have
        given
        being fairly
      are
        red
        rotting, or
      you
        who
        different from
        in his favour?
      so
        good,
        good; yet but
      of
        the decay
        very good;
        rotten."
        loaded
        rotten?" Jaroslaw
        wrong), is
        rotten"
        strings
      which
        are
      loaded
        rotten gut,
      have
        never encountered this
        Further,
        this
      But
        I care
      but
        to
        yet, but
        decay
        best (to my
        for
      But
        he
        what
        being
        out of
      which
      few
        any;
        chuse
      Catlins,
        and
        rare,
        these
      are
        referring
        talks of
      at
      and
        gives
      types)A'
      the
        lightest
        >> [8][14][16]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm
        >> %
      1)
        the
      ANY
      already
        have
      perhaps
        not
        simply
      could
        be
        markers,
        >> [9][15][17]http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l
        >> [10][16][18]http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6
        basses, as they are in this one below:
        >> [11][17][19]http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg
        Gimped
        just
        >> loaded basses :
        >> [12][18][20]http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7
        >> %
        >> See [13][19][21]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf
        (of text
      of
        a 12
        player:
        >> [14][20][22]http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf
      for
        >> [15][21][23]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf
        iconography,
        happened
      what
        ever.
      here:
        >> [16][22][24]http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b
        >> %
      red
        were
      from
        this
        sort
      was
        but
        process
      seal
        of
        therefore
        (Charles
        purposes) in a
        even
        simple
      holes,
        descriptions
        being
      makes
        proved,
        chemicals
      found,
        as
        >> A' A' A' A' DeA' : JarosAe^1aw Lipski
      <[17][23][25][email-masked]>
        >> Ae'A' : Anthony Hind <[18][24][26][email-masked]>
      for
      using
      mainly
        one
        difference
      I
        get
        commonly
        me
        wouldn't
        superiority
        and
      o
        present are
      of
        result in
        also be
        loading. Aren't
      but
        nor are
      experiments).
        --
      References
        1.
      [25][27]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=shaunkfng@gmail
   .com
        2.
      [26][28]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jaroslawlipski@
   wp.pl
        3.
      [27][29]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3phile@yaho
   o.com
        4.
      [28][30]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jaroslawlipski@
   wp.pl
        5.
      [29][31]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
   th.edu
        6. [30][32]http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2
        7. [31][33]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm
        8. [32][34]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm
        9. [33][35]http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l
        10. [34][36]http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6
        11. [35][37]http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg
        12. [36][38]http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7
        13. [37][39]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf
        14. [38][40]http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf
        15. [39][41]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf
        16. [40][42]http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b
        17.
      [41][43]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jaroslawlipski@
   wp.pl
        18.
      [42][44]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3phile@yaho
   o.com
      To get on or off this list see list information at
      [43][45]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
      --
   References
      1. mailto:[46][email-masked]
      2. mailto:[47][email-masked]
      3. mailto:[48][email-masked]
      4. mailto:[49][email-masked]
      5. mailto:[50][email-masked]
      6. mailto:[51][email-masked]
      7. mailto:[52][email-masked]
      8. mailto:[53][email-masked]
      9. mailto:[54][email-masked]
     10. mailto:[55][email-masked]
     11. mailto:[56][email-masked]
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     13. [58]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm
     14. [59]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm
     15. [60]http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l
     16. [61]http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6
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     18. [63]http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7
     19. [64]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf
     20. [65]http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf
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     23. mailto:[68][email-masked]
     24. mailto:[69][email-masked]
     25.
   [70]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
     26.
   [71]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
     27.
   [72]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
     28.
   [73]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
     29.
   [74]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
     30. [75]http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2
     31. [76]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm
     32. [77]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm
     33. [78]http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l
     34. [79]http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6
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     40. [85]http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b
     41.
   [86]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
     42.
   [87]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
     43. [88]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
   3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
   4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
   5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
   6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
   7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
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  13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  14. http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2
  15. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm
  16. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm
  17. http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l
  18. http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6
  19. http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg
  20. http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7
  21. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf
  22. http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf
  23. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf
  24. http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b
  25. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  26. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  27. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
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  29. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  30. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  31. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  32. http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2
  33. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm
  34. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm
  35. http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l
  36. http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6
  37. http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg
  38. http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7
  39. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf
  40. http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf
  41. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf
  42. http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b
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  44. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  45. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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  49. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  50. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  51. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
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  56. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  57. http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2
  58. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm
  59. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm
  60. http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l
  61. http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6
  62. http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg
  63. http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7
  64. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf
  65. http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf
  66. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf
  67. http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b
  68. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  69. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  70. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
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  73. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  74. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  75. http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2
  76. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm
  77. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm
  78. http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l
  79. http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6
  80. http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg
  81. http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7
  82. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf
  83. http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf
  84. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf
  85. http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b
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  87. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  88. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html