Subject: Scalloped ribs

From: William Samson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 19:32:51 +0100 (BST)

Hi,

   If it isn't a trade secret, I wonder if anybody can tell me how to get
   scalloped ribs?  I know that ribs do tend to scallop a little bit,
   naturally, when the bowl is put together, but I have seen lutes with an
   altogether more pronounced scalloping.  This feature also appears in a
   lot of the iconography, such as Caravaggio's well-known lute player.

   Thanks!

   Bill

   --

---

From: "Louis Aull" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 15:43:22 -0400

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Bill,

A lute rib tapers at each end, which means the outer fibers that would have
made it down to the fastening point on each end are cut. As a result, there
is no circular binding force to hold them down like the center fibers of the
rib have. As the wood naturally tries to straighten out of its bend, the
scallop occurs since there is nothing to stop the outer fibers from
straightening. To enhance this naturally, don't bend the rib completely to
the form, and use some force to pull the rib onto the form to complete the
curve. The edges will curl up away from the form more. To defeat this, over
bend and heat twice so the rib is over curved, and the scallop will lay flat
when forced onto the form. Cut the rib roughly to shape before bending .
Another trick is to fasten the rib at each end on the form and use a heat
gun on the outer edges of the rib. The heat will cause the bent curve on the
outer portions to relax and the rib will curl up more. All these methods
produce a mild scallop. It helps to bend all the ribs before installing them
so they are consistent and will meet up on the form. For a brutal scallop,
you would need a shaped forming iron to force the complex curve (yuk). The
thinner the rib, the more the scallop. However, get too thin and you risk
plastic deformation of the shell at the neck block, and the neck will come
forward, ruining the action.

I use aircraft silk on the back of rib joints and have never had one crack.
I can actually heat the inside of the shell before putting on the soundboard
to relax out any stress in the shell. This also enhances the scallop.

I have seen lutes (60's and 70's) where the maker made the ribs thick and
scraped the scallop out.

Louis Aull

Phone: 770.978.1872

Fax: 866.496.4294

Cell:404.932.1614

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<p class=MsoNormal>Bill,<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal>A lute rib tapers at each end, which means the outer fibers
that would have made it down to the fastening point on each end are cut. As a
result, there is no circular binding force to hold them down like the center fibers
of the rib have. As the wood naturally tries to straighten out of its bend, the
scallop occurs since there is nothing to stop the outer fibers from
straightening. To enhance this naturally, don&#8217;t bend the rib completely
to the form, and use some force to pull the rib onto the form to complete the curve.
The edges will curl up away from the form more. To defeat this, over bend and
heat twice so the rib is over curved, and the scallop will lay flat when forced
onto the form. Cut the rib roughly to shape before bending . Another trick is
to fasten the rib at each end on the form and use a heat gun on the outer edges
of the rib. The heat will cause the bent curve on the outer portions to relax
and the rib will curl up more. All these methods produce a mild scallop. It
helps to bend all the ribs before installing them so they are consistent and
will meet up on the form. For a brutal scallop, you would need a shaped forming
iron to force the complex curve (yuk). The thinner the rib, the more the
scallop. However, get too thin and you risk plastic deformation of the shell at
the neck block, and the neck will come forward, ruining the action.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal>I use aircraft silk on the back of rib joints and have never
had one crack. I can actually heat the inside of the shell before putting on
the soundboard to relax out any stress in the shell. This also enhances the
scallop.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal>I have seen lutes (60&#8217;s and 70&#8217;s) where the
maker made the ribs thick and scraped the scallop out.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Louis
Aull<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Phone:
770.978.1872</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Fax:
866.496.4294<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Cell:404.932.1614&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><img
width=75 height=65 id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:[email-masked]"
alt=LOGO3><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 19:59:56 +0000

Thanks very much for sharing, Louis!  These are exactly the kinds of ideas I was hoping to get.  :)
Bill
Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone from Virgin Media

-----Original Message-----
From: "Louis Aull" <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 15:43:22 
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Scalloped Ribs

Bill,

Louis Aull

Phone: 770.978.1872

Fax: 866.496.4294

Cell:404.932.1614

LOGO3

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 19:59:56 +0000

-----Original Message-----
From: "Louis Aull" <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 15:43:22 
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Scalloped Ribs

Bill,

Louis Aull

Phone: 770.978.1872

Fax: 866.496.4294

Cell:404.932.1614

LOGO3

<head>

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From: "Tim@Buckeye" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 20:02:50 -0400

That's really interesting, Louis.

Tim

Sent from my iPhone

---

From: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 08:28:23 +0100 (BST)

Dear Bill,

   It all depends what you mean by scalloped: ranging from a smooth curved
   section (like the Chambure 'vihuela') through to most curve at the rib
   extremities - as more commonly found on old instruments and also
   depicted in some iconography.  I presume you're asking about the
   latter.

   Like you, I find this comes about naturally as the rib is bent to the
   mould - but I do notice that it becomes more pronounced with time - I
   have a 35 year old lute which had almost flat ribs but which now has
   adopted a concave/scalloped section over time as the various stresses
   take effect.

   One other possibility to produce even more pronounced 'peaks' ( ie flat
   in the middle but most curving at the extremities) has been suggested
   by (I think) Martin Shepherd: this is to make the joint between each
   rib edge slightly open at the inner edge so that the glue, when
   contracting and pulling the edges together, creates the peaked effect.
   I suspect many of us may (subconsciously?) make the joint this way -
   not so much to produce a peak but to ensure that the outer surface of
   the joint (which shows) is 'perfect'.

   rgds

   Martyn
   --- On Fri, 18/5/12, William Samson <[email-masked]> wrote:

     From: William Samson <[email-masked]>
     Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Scalloped ribs
     To: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
     Date: Friday, 18 May, 2012, 19:32

      Hi,
      If it isn't a trade secret, I wonder if anybody can tell me how to
   get
      scalloped ribs?  I know that ribs do tend to scallop a little bit,
      naturally, when the bowl is put together, but I have seen lutes with
   an
      altogether more pronounced scalloping.  This feature also appears in
   a
      lot of the iconography, such as Caravaggio's well-known lute player.
      Thanks!
      Bill
      --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 15:35:44 -0400 (EDT)

<font color='black' size='2' face='arial'><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2">Given the severe scalloping in some of the iconography (although it might be artist license on part of the painter), I wonder if some of the early makers made very thick ribs out of a relatively soft wood, and then scraped the ribs to scallop them. This would give nice thick robust glue joints between the ribs, which was probably a good thing back in those days, but the scalloping would reduce the weight. I've thought of experimenting by trying this, but I have not yet.</font>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="2">There is an old lute shell on display in the Cite de la Musique, in Paris (Laux Maler &nbsp;E.2005.3.1), and, from what I can tell, instead if smoothly scalloping over time, the glue joint between the ribs appears raised, but the remainder of the rib is flat, not curved/scalloped, thus giving a 'pseudo-scalloped' appearance.- trj&nbsp;</font><br>
<br>
<br>

<div style="font-family: helvetica, arial; font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Louis Aull &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
To: lute-builder &lt;[email-masked]&gt;<br>
Sent: Fri, May 18, 2012 3:44 pm<br>
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Scalloped Ribs<br>
<br>

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Bill,

Louis Aull

Phone: 770.978.1872

Fax: 866.496.4294

Cell:404.932.1614

LOGO3

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&lt;p class=MsoNormal&gt;Bill,&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p class=MsoNormal&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p class=MsoNormal&gt;A lute rib tapers at each end, which means the outer fibers
that would have made it down to the fastening point on each end are cut. As a
result, there is no circular binding force to hold them down like the center 
fibers
of the rib have. As the wood naturally tries to straighten out of its bend, the
scallop occurs since there is nothing to stop the outer fibers from
straightening. To enhance this naturally, don&amp;#8217;t bend the rib completely
to the form, and use some force to pull the rib onto the form to complete the 
curve.
The edges will curl up away from the form more. To defeat this, over bend and
heat twice so the rib is over curved, and the scallop will lay flat when forced
onto the form. Cut the rib roughly to shape before bending . Another trick is
to fasten the rib at each end on the form and use a heat gun on the outer edges
of the rib. The heat will cause the bent curve on the outer portions to relax
and the rib will curl up more. All these methods produce a mild scallop. It
helps to bend all the ribs before installing them so they are consistent and
will meet up on the form. For a brutal scallop, you would need a shaped forming
iron to force the complex curve (yuk). The thinner the rib, the more the
scallop. However, get too thin and you risk plastic deformation of the shell at
the neck block, and the neck will come forward, ruining the action.&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p class=MsoNormal&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p class=MsoNormal&gt;I use aircraft silk on the back of rib joints and have never
had one crack. I can actually heat the inside of the shell before putting on
the soundboard to relax out any stress in the shell. This also enhances the
scallop.&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p class=MsoNormal&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p class=MsoNormal&gt;I have seen lutes (60&amp;#8217;s and 70&amp;#8217;s) where the
maker made the ribs thick and scraped the scallop out.&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p class=MsoNormal&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p class=MsoNormal&gt;&lt;span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'&gt;Louis
Aull&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p class=MsoNormal&gt;&lt;span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'&gt;Phone:
770.978.1872&lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p class=MsoNormal&gt;&lt;span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'&gt;Fax:
866.496.4294&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p class=MsoNormal&gt;&lt;span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'&gt;Cell:404.932.1614&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;
&lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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&lt;p class=MsoNormal&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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From: "Louis Aull" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 09:44:28 -0400

Paul,

   The originals used what they had, linen or paper. The material has to
   absorb the glue and should shrink while drying. That leaves synthetics
   out. The silk I use is for larger model airplanes and I get it from
   [1]http://www.darehobby.com/, the #4 is heavy enough. This silk is
   thinner than paper, but stronger than kevlar. I cut it into 1/2" to
   3/4" strips and use a small cup to soak the silk in glue. Allow the
   silk to expand for a few minutes in the glue before applying it to the
   ribs. Smooth it out with an artist brush. Do the odd joints and let
   dry, then do the even joints. When dry, you will barely be able to see
   the fabric. Trim off the frayed threads. To make a believer out of
   yourself, make a trial joint and use paper, linen, and silk. You will
   split the wood before the silk ever splits.

   Louis Aull

   --

References

   1. http://www.darehobby.com/