Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: bandora tunes

From: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 08:25:22 +0100 (BST)

Very interesting Nancy and confirms my own view.

   Very little work seems to have been done on Bandora stringing and what
   was done (much by Eph Segerman many years ago) was largely speculation.

   There are a few factors arising from this which I think we should try
   to address:

   1.  I'm not sure that bridges coming off a Bandora suggests, if
   correctly glued, they cannot withstand normal lute tensions for an
   instrument of this string length. Bass lute (ie similar string
   length/tensions) bridges don't normally fail. The design bandora
   bridges is different to that of lutes with strings fastened around a
   hitch pin at the rear of the bridge and passing over the top of the
   bridge (rather than through it as the lute). But  based on the Palmer
   orpharion, I think a bandora bridge might have been low even by lute
   standards (my old Palmer dyeline print has now faded so much that it's
   difficult to measure with any precision).

   2. Most of the modern Bandoras I've come across seem to be set up with
   a very low tension which, as discussed, make it very easy to displace
   the strings and result in poor intonation. The sole historical
   justification for this practice, of which I'm aware, is an early source
   (is it Barley?) saying that care must be taken when plucking the
   orpharion/bandora to avoid string clashing. But, of course, this may be
   related to the closer inter-string seperation on wire string
   instruments than with lutes.

   2. One late piece of information is Roger North telling us that a
   Bandora could stand up against a harpsichord; but this is late and, I
   presume, relating to plectrum play for continuo purposes. Nevertheless
   I think it might indicate a relatively heavy stringing may have been
   used even in the earlier period.

   I'll copy this to the cittern list and to the lute builder list for any
   comment.

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Mon, 13/6/11, Nancy Carlin <[email-masked]>
   wrote:

     From: Nancy Carlin <[email-masked]>
     Subject: [LUTE] Re: bandora tunes
     To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email-masked]>, "Lute Net"
     <[email-masked]>, "Stuart Walsh" <[email-masked]>
     Date: Monday, 13 June, 2011, 18:53

      I have found that slightly high string tension does mean that it is
      easier not to pull the strings just enough out of alignment so that
   the
      intonation suffers. But you also need to make sure that the
   instrument
      is up to the tension - there are lots of stories about wire-strung
      instruments with the bridges coming off.  Before changing any
   strings I
      would play the instrument enough to make sure that it's not
   "operator
      error."  With all of the ones I have played (cittern, orpharions &
      bandora) there are individual places where you have a tendency to
   pull
      fretting strings out of tune, especially with the 3rd finger.
      If you find it is indeed the strings, I have had the best results
   with
      strings from Andrew Hartig
      [1][email-masked]
      They had more evenly balanced tension from course to course and cost
   my
      less than NRI strings.
      Nancy
           Dear Stuart,
           You may find a higher string tension (ie use thicker strings)
        will help
           in tuning stability.
           MH
           --- On Mon, 13/6/11, Stuart Walsh <[2][email-masked]>
   wrote:
             From: Stuart Walsh <[3][email-masked]>
             Subject: [LUTE] bandora tunes
             To: "Lute Net" <[4][email-masked]>
             Date: Monday, 13 June, 2011, 12:29
           I've got the Lute Society's bandora on loan. It's a nice
        instrument.
           used to have one years ago but I'd  forgotten how difficult it
   is
        to
           get these things tolerably in tune. Here's a go at three very
        short
           pieces from Thomas Brown's 'Bandore and lyra viol book' (about
        which I
           know nothing), copied out years ago by Donald Gill. (And thanks
        to
           Peter Forrester). The tuning isn't quite right - but not too
   far
        out, I
           hope.
           [1][1] [5]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipGcIA8EUX8
           and here's a couple of RT's uke tunes
           [2][6]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f22GLlsLZug
           Stuart
           To get on or off this list see list information at
           [3][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
           --
        References
           1. [2][8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipGcIA8EUX8
           2. [3][9]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f22GLlsLZug
           3.
   [4][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
      Nancy Carlin Associates
      P.O. Box 6499
      Concord, CA 94524  USA
      phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582
      web sites - [5]www.nancycarlinassociates.com
      [6]www.groundsanddivisions.info
      Representing:
      FROM WALES - Crasdant  & Carreg Lafar,  FROM ENGLAND - Jez Lowe &
   Jez
      Lowe & The Bad Pennies, and now representing EARLY MUSIC - The
   Venere
      Lute Quartet, The Good Pennyworths & Morrongiello & Young
      Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA
      web site - [7][11]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org
      --
   References
      1. [12]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipGcIA8EUX8
      2. [13]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipGcIA8EUX8
      3. [14]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f22GLlsLZug
      4. [15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
      5. [16]http://www.nancycarlinassociates.com/
      6. [17]http://www.groundsanddivisions.info/
      7. [18]http://lutesocietyofamerica.org/

   --

References

   1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
   2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
   3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
   4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
   5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipGcIA8EUX8
   6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f22GLlsLZug
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipGcIA8EUX8
   9. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f22GLlsLZug
  10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  11. http://lutesocietyofamerica.org/
  12. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipGcIA8EUX8
  13. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipGcIA8EUX8
  14. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f22GLlsLZug
  15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  16. http://www.nancycarlinassociates.com/
  17. http://www.groundsanddivisions.info/
  18. http://lutesocietyofamerica.org/

---

From: David Van Edwards <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 16:42:52 +0100

Dear Martyn et al,

   Just in answer to your surmise, this is Barley's instruction for the
   Orpharion. In his instruction for the Bandora he just says that the
   same considerations apply as for the Orpharion.

   TO THE READER COURTEOUS AND FRIENDLY READER, as thou hast seene
   before what my good will hath beene to pleasure thee in the
   practise of the Lute, so here in this booke thou mayest perceave
   my endevoure continued to acquaint thee likewise with the stately
   Orpharion, although indeede that the lessons which are played
   upon the Lute may as well be played upon the Orpharion, and
   likewise the lessons which are played upon the Orpharion may bee
   played upon the Lute: But this difference is to be considered
   betweene them. First for that the Orpharion is strong with more
   stringes than the Lute, and also hath more frets or stops, and
   whereas the Lute is strong with gut strings, the Orpharion is
   strong with wire stringes, by reason of which manner of
   stringing, the Orpharion doth necessarilie require a more gentle
   & drawing stroke than the Lute, I meane the fingers of the right
   hand must be easilie drawen over the stringes, and not suddenly
   griped, or sharpelie stroken as the Lute is: for if yee should
   doo so, then the wire stringes would clash or jarre together the
   one against the other; which would be a cause that the sounde
   would bee harsh and unpleasant: Therefore it is meete that you
   observe the difference of the stroke. And concerning the frets or
   stoppes, the difference doth consist in the different number that
   is betweene them, for the Lute hath no farther than i. and the
   Orpharion hath to q. but it is seldome that any lesson for the
   Orpharion doth passe the stops of L. or M. yet those that are
   cunning, can at their pleasure make use for all the stops. And
   for that which may bee said of the cunning or of the diversitie
   of accords with the true manner of fingering or handling the
   necke and bellie of the Orpharion, the former rules that are in
   the Instruction to the Lute will sufficiently instruct thee,
   onely the difference of the stroke excepted, as I have shewed
   before, which must bee more gentle and drawing, and not so sudden
   and sharpe as the Lute is alwaies stroken. Thus hoping thou wilt
   accept both of my travaile & charge seeing my paines hath beene
   imployed to pleasure all those that are desirous to bestowe some
   times on the practise of this Instrument, and cannot at all times
   have a Tutor.

   Best wishes,

   David

   At 08:25 +0100 14/6/11, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

        Very interesting Nancy and confirms my own view.
        Very little work seems to have been done on Bandora stringing and
     what
        was done (much by Eph Segerman many years ago) was largely
     speculation.
        There are a few factors arising from this which I think we should
     try
        to address:
        1.  I'm not sure that bridges coming off a Bandora suggests, if
        correctly glued, they cannot withstand normal lute tensions for
     an
        instrument of this string length. Bass lute (ie similar string
        length/tensions) bridges don't normally fail. The design bandora
        bridges is different to that of lutes with strings fastened
     around a
        hitch pin at the rear of the bridge and passing over the top of
     the
        bridge (rather than through it as the lute). But  based on the
     Palmer
        orpharion, I think a bandora bridge might have been low even by
     lute
        standards (my old Palmer dyeline print has now faded so much that
     it's
        difficult to measure with any precision).
        2. Most of the modern Bandoras I've come across seem to be set up
     with
        a very low tension which, as discussed, make it very easy to
     displace
        the strings and result in poor intonation. The sole historical
        justification for this practice, of which I'm aware, is an early
     source

        (is it Barley?) saying that care must be taken when plucking the
        orpharion/bandora to avoid string clashing. But, of course, this
     may be
        related to the closer inter-string seperation on wire string
        instruments than with lutes.
        2. One late piece of information is Roger North telling us that a
        Bandora could stand up against a harpsichord; but this is late
     and, I
        presume, relating to plectrum play for continuo purposes.
     Nevertheless
        I think it might indicate a relatively heavy stringing may have
     been
        used even in the earlier period.
        I'll copy this to the cittern list and to the lute builder list
     for any
        comment.
        regards
        Martyn
        --- On Mon, 13/6/11, Nancy Carlin
     <[email-masked]>
        wrote:
          From: Nancy Carlin <[email-masked]>
          Subject: [LUTE] Re: bandora tunes
          To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email-masked]>, "Lute Net"
          <[email-masked]>, "Stuart Walsh" <[email-masked]>
          Date: Monday, 13 June, 2011, 18:53
           I have found that slightly high string tension does mean that
     it is
           easier not to pull the strings just enough out of alignment so
     that
        the
           intonation suffers. But you also need to make sure that the
        instrument
           is up to the tension - there are lots of stories about
     wire-strung
           instruments with the bridges coming off.  Before changing any
        strings I
           would play the instrument enough to make sure that it's not
        "operator
           error."  With all of the ones I have played (cittern,
     orpharions &
           bandora) there are individual places where you have a tendency
     to
        pull
           fretting strings out of tune, especially with the 3rd finger.
           If you find it is indeed the strings, I have had the best
     results
        with
           strings from Andrew Hartig
           [1][email-masked]
           They had more evenly balanced tension from course to course
     and cost
        my
           less than NRI strings.
           Nancy
                Dear Stuart,
                You may find a higher string tension (ie use thicker
     strings)
             will help
                in tuning stability.
                MH
                --- On Mon, 13/6/11, Stuart Walsh
     <[2][email-masked]>
        wrote:
                  From: Stuart Walsh <[3][email-masked]>
                  Subject: [LUTE] bandora tunes
                  To: "Lute Net" <[4][email-masked]>
                  Date: Monday, 13 June, 2011, 12:29
                I've got the Lute Society's bandora on loan. It's a nice
             instrument.
                used to have one years ago but I'd  forgotten how
     difficult it
        is
             to
                get these things tolerably in tune. Here's a go at three
     very
             short
                pieces from Thomas Brown's 'Bandore and lyra viol book'
     (about
             which I
                know nothing), copied out years ago by Donald Gill. (And
     thanks
             to
                Peter Forrester). The tuning isn't quite right - but not
     too
        far
             out, I
                hope.
                [1][1] [5]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipGcIA8EUX8
                and here's a couple of RT's uke tunes
                [2][6]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f22GLlsLZug
                Stuart
                To get on or off this list see list information at

           FROM WALES - Crasdant  & Carreg Lafar,  FROM ENGLAND - Jez
     Lowe &

        1.
     http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=subsonic_vacation@earth
     link.net
        2.
     http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
     http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
        4.
     http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]

--

   The Smokehouse,
   6 Whitwell Road,
   Norwich,  NR1 4HB
   England.

   Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
   Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

   --

---

From: Stuart Walsh <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 22:27:01 +0100

On 14/06/2011 20:08, Nancy Carlin wrote:

     I think it is now common knowledge among the few people who build
     orpharions and bandoras that the bridges should be tapered higher
     off the belly on the bass side. Here is a link to some details on
     the Palmer orphario (the 9 course instrument in Denmark).
     [1]http://www.darryl-martin.co.uk/palmer.htm
     Unfortunately the bridge is a replacement.  If you read the pamphlet
     on wire strings that the Lute Society (England) puts out you will
     see that the Rose orpharion also has a replacement bridge.
     About the tension on my 2 orpharions - my 6 course Rose (built by
     Peter Biffin in 1984) feels like it has a bit more tension, and I am
     very happy with the intonation.  My 9 course Palmer (built by Bruce
     Brook in 2009) has lots more strings and the tension feels lighter.
     During the year + I have had it, the intonation problems have
     improved with a combination of string changes and my improved skill
     in getting my left hand fingers where they needed to be for this
     instrument, plus I got a better tuner.  On the Palmer, I had
     initially tried an octave on the 6th course, but if the 2 different
     strings were pulled slightly off, the intonation was much more
     offensive than with unison strings.  Both instruments have a tastini
     to help intonation, but they are in different places.
     About the string clashing and other assorted buzzes and nasty noises
     - If you hit a string too hard it can buzz on the metal frets -
     something that lute players don't need to worry about.  With my 2
     instruments the feel of the frets is quite different. The Rose has
     lower scallops between each fret, so it's harder to get a good clear
     sound for bar chords. The Palmer has a lovely low action and the bar
     chords are a dream, unless you are pulling a string a bit to the
     side.  The Rose has the string in the pairs closer together, which
     works well with that bit more tension. The Palmer has the string
     further apart and it has taken a  while to get used to the spacing
     One more thing about the tension and playability - my borrowed
     bandora, which is old and seems quite high tension, has no scallops
     between the frets, but works well for intonation and bar chords.
     It's biggest problem is that it is quite loud, especially when
     combined with lutes.
     Nancy

   Another interesting bandora issue is that there were (or may have been)
   smaller bandoras. Peter Forrester and Donald Gill (and others?) have
   suggested that bandoras in D,  a fourth higher, existed. There are some
   very difficult stretches in some of the bandora solos (but not in the
   existing bandora consort parts, I think). For example, this chord:
   third course, second fret + second course, first fret + first course,
   fifth fret. On an instrument with the first course at about 72cms
   that's an enormous stretch.  (Of course, this might just be an anomaly)
   Stuart
   --

References

   1. http://www.darryl-martin.co.uk/palmer.htm

---

From: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 09:15:31 +0100 (BST)

Thank you for this Nancy. Unfortunately I can't find the paper to which
   you refer on your site - it's probably staring me in the face, so
   please point me in the right direction.

   As an aside, without seeing your paper, I'm not at all convinced of the
   existence of small Bandoras (ie with string length similar to that of
   the extant Palmer orpharion) at the time.  Ian Harwood's speculations
   and conclusions on pitch and the sizes of English viols is also open to
   question.

   LH stretches are, of course, much a matter of what one gets used to:
   regularly playing theorbos and the large continuo gallichon (with a
   string length of 93cm and, interestingly, tuned identically to the
   bandora), a string length in the mid/high 70s seems very manageable for
   the extant bandora repertoire.

   rgds

   Martyn

   --- On Tue, 14/6/11, Nancy Carlin <[email-masked]>
   wrote:

     From: Nancy Carlin <[email-masked]>
     Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: bandora tunes
     To: "Stuart Walsh" <[email-masked]>
     Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email-masked]>, "Lute Net"
     <[email-masked]>, "Lute builder Dmth"
     <[email-masked]>, "Cittern Dmth"
     <[email-masked]>
     Date: Tuesday, 14 June, 2011, 22:50

   Yes, I discussed then "high pitch" bandora issue in my article on
   bandora music - now available on my web site
   [1]www.GroundsandDivisions.info
   I am a big advocate of the orpharion sized instrument for a lot of the
   solo bandora music. While some of the slower, processional type pieces
   sounds great at the bass range, there are some pieces with lots of fast
   notes that sound like mud on a bass instrument. What really sealed the
   deal for me was when I visited Chris Morrogiello, who has a very nice
   high-pitch bandora made by Peter Forrester. We sight read through some
   consort lesson with just me on that bandora and Chris playing a treble
   lute. The balance was perfect and some of those pieces did not sound
   bad with 4 parts missing.
   In addition to the long stretches in the bandora solos, there are also
   places where you need to fret a note on the 7th course, wile playing
   notes on the first string. Unless you have very big hands that's hard
   on the bass instrument.  The best explanation of the pitches in England
   at this time, that I have read is Ian Harwood's article in Early Music.
   He documents a number of the sizes of gambas and which ones could have
   been played together.
   Nancy

     [2]http://www.darryl-martin.co.uk/palmer.htm

     Another interesting bandora issue is that there were (or may have
     been) smaller bandoras. Peter Forrester and Donald Gill (and
     others?) have suggested that bandoras in D,  a fourth higher,
     existed. There are some very difficult stretches in some of the
     bandora solos (but not in the existing bandora consort parts, I
     think). For example, this chord: third course, second fret + second
     course, first fret + first course, fifth fret. On an instrument with
     the first course at about 72cms that's an enormous stretch.  (Of
     course, this might just be an anomaly)
     Stuart

   Nancy Carlin Associates
   P.O. Box 6499
   Concord, CA 94524  USA
   phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582
   web sites - [3]www.nancycarlinassociates.com
   [4]www.groundsanddivisions.info
   Representing:
   FROM WALES - Crasdant  & Carreg Lafar,  FROM ENGLAND - Jez Lowe & Jez
   Lowe & The Bad Pennies, and now representing EARLY MUSIC - The Venere
   Lute Quartet, The Good Pennyworths & Morrongiello & Young
   Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA
   web site - [5]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org

   --

References

   1. http://www.groundsanddivisions.info/
   2. http://www.darryl-martin.co.uk/palmer.htm
   3. http://www.nancycarlinassociates.com/
   4. http://www.groundsanddivisions.info/
   5. http://lutesocietyofamerica.org/

---

From: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 09:43:49 +0100 (BST)

Very interesting example Stuart: where's it from? Is it one of the
   transcriptions from a lute source?

   My comment about the bandora repertoirs being manageable with a string
   length in the 70s wouldn't seem to include this example - which is
   indeed tricky!  As you say it might be a singular anomaly: perhaps a
   literal intabluation error - indeed, it's odd that it wasn't all
   intabulated in the 5th 'position' [ie 1f, 3f, 4h chord shape as found
   in Holborne pieces] - maybe the voice leading?.

   I've just skimmed the Holborne and Barley pieces and Dd.2.11 but
   couldn't spot it there, but maybe the skimming was too light.....

   M

   --- On Tue, 14/6/11, Stuart Walsh <[email-masked]> wrote:

     From: Stuart Walsh <[email-masked]>
     Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: bandora tunes
     To: "Nancy Carlin" <[email-masked]>
     Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email-masked]>, "Lute Net"
     <[email-masked]>, "Lute builder Dmth"
     <[email-masked]>, "Cittern Dmth"
     <[email-masked]>
     Date: Tuesday, 14 June, 2011, 22:27

      On 14/06/2011 20:08, Nancy Carlin wrote:
        I think it is now common knowledge among the few people who build
        orpharions and bandoras that the bridges should be tapered higher
        off the belly on the bass side. Here is a link to some details on
        the Palmer orphario (the 9 course instrument in Denmark).
        [1][1]http://www.darryl-martin.co.uk/palmer.htm
        Unfortunately the bridge is a replacement.  If you read the
   pamphlet
        on wire strings that the Lute Society (England) puts out you will
        see that the Rose orpharion also has a replacement bridge.
        About the tension on my 2 orpharions - my 6 course Rose (built by
        Peter Biffin in 1984) feels like it has a bit more tension, and I
   am
        very happy with the intonation.  My 9 course Palmer (built by
   Bruce
        Brook in 2009) has lots more strings and the tension feels
   lighter.
        During the year + I have had it, the intonation problems have
        improved with a combination of string changes and my improved
   skill
        in getting my left hand fingers where they needed to be for this
        instrument, plus I got a better tuner.  On the Palmer, I had
        initially tried an octave on the 6th course, but if the 2
   different
        strings were pulled slightly off, the intonation was much more
        offensive than with unison strings.  Both instruments have a
   tastini
        to help intonation, but they are in different places.
        About the string clashing and other assorted buzzes and nasty
   noises
        - If you hit a string too hard it can buzz on the metal frets -
        something that lute players don't need to worry about.  With my 2
        instruments the feel of the frets is quite different. The Rose has
        lower scallops between each fret, so it's harder to get a good
   clear
        sound for bar chords. The Palmer has a lovely low action and the
   bar
        chords are a dream, unless you are pulling a string a bit to the
        side.  The Rose has the string in the pairs closer together, which
        works well with that bit more tension. The Palmer has the string
        further apart and it has taken a  while to get used to the spacing
        One more thing about the tension and playability - my borrowed
        bandora, which is old and seems quite high tension, has no
   scallops
        between the frets, but works well for intonation and bar chords.
        It's biggest problem is that it is quite loud, especially when
        combined with lutes.
        Nancy
      Another interesting bandora issue is that there were (or may have
   been)
      smaller bandoras. Peter Forrester and Donald Gill (and others?) have
      suggested that bandoras in D,  a fourth higher, existed. There are
   some
      very difficult stretches in some of the bandora solos (but not in
   the
      existing bandora consort parts, I think). For example, this chord:
      third course, second fret + second course, first fret + first
   course,
      fifth fret. On an instrument with the first course at about 72cms
      that's an enormous stretch.  (Of course, this might just be an
   anomaly)
      Stuart
      --
   References
      1. [2]http://www.darryl-martin.co.uk/palmer.htm
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.darryl-martin.co.uk/palmer.htm
   2. http://www.darryl-martin.co.uk/palmer.htm
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 07:59:53 +0100 (BST)

It's not so much that he's 'wrong' but that the evidence can be
   interpreted in other ways......

   rgds

   M
   --- On Sat, 18/6/11, Nancy Carlin <[email-masked]>
   wrote:

     From: Nancy Carlin <[email-masked]>
     Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: bandora tunes
     To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email-masked]>, "Stuart Walsh"
     <[email-masked]>
     Cc: "Lute Net" <[email-masked]>, "Lute builder Dmth"
     <[email-masked]>, "Cittern Dmth"
     <[email-masked]>
     Date: Saturday, 18 June, 2011, 0:07

   Your comments about Ian Harwood's idea on pitch have been running
   around in my head. has anyone written any article in rebuttal?  I would
   be interested in what the arguments are about why he is wrong.
   Nancy

     Thank you for this Nancy. Unfortunately I can't find the paper to
     which you refer on your site - it's probably staring me in the face,
     so please point me in the right direction.

     As an aside, without seeing your paper, I'm not at all convinced of
     the existence of small Bandoras (ie with string length similar to
     that of the extant Palmer orpharion) at the time.  Ian Harwood's
     speculations and conclusions on pitch and the sizes of English viols
     is also open to question.

     LH stretches are, of course, much a matter of what one gets used to:
     regularly playing theorbos and the large continuo gallichon (with a
     string length of 93cm and, interestingly, tuned identically to the
     bandora), a string length in the mid/high 70s seems very manageable
     for the extant bandora repertoire.

     rgds

     Martyn

          From: Nancy Carlin <[email-masked]>
          Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: bandora tunes
          To: "Stuart Walsh" <[email-masked]>
          Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email-masked]>, "Lute Net"
          <[email-masked]>, "Lute builder Dmth"
          <[email-masked]>, "Cittern Dmth"
          <[email-masked]>
          Date: Tuesday, 14 June, 2011, 22:50
          Yes, I discussed then "high pitch" bandora issue in my article
          on bandora music - now available on my web site
          [1]www.GroundsandDivisions.info
          I am a big advocate of the orpharion sized instrument for a lot
          of the solo bandora music. While some of the slower,
          processional type pieces sounds great at the bass range, there
          are some pieces with lots of fast notes that sound like mud on a
          bass instrument. What really sealed the deal for me was when I
          visited Chris Morrogiello, who has a very nice high-pitch
          bandora made by Peter Forrester. We sight read through some
          consort lesson with just me on that bandora and Chris playing a
          treble lute. The balance was perfect and some of those pieces
          did not sound bad with 4 parts missing.
          In addition to the long stretches in the bandora solos, there
          are also places where you need to fret a note on the 7th course,
          wile playing notes on the first string. Unless you have very big
          hands that's hard on the bass instrument.  The best explanation
          of the pitches in England at this time, that I have read is Ian
          Harwood's article in Early Music. He documents a number of the
          sizes of gambas and which ones could have been played together.
          Nancy

          I think it is now common knowledge among the few people who
          build orpharions and bandoras that the bridges should be tapered
          higher off the belly on the bass side. Here is a link to some
          details on the Palmer orphario (the 9 course instrument in
          Denmark).
          [2]http://www.darryl-martin.co.uk/palmer.htm
          Unfortunately the bridge is a replacement.  If you read the
          pamphlet on wire strings that the Lute Society (England) puts
          out you will see that the Rose orpharion also has a replacement
          bridge.
          About the tension on my 2 orpharions - my 6 course Rose (built
          by Peter Biffin in 1984) feels like it has a bit more tension,
          and I am very happy with the intonation.  My 9 course Palmer
          (built by Bruce Brook in 2009) has lots more strings and the
          tension feels lighter.  During the year + I have had it, the
          intonation problems have improved with a combination of string
          changes and my improved skill in getting my left hand fingers
          where they needed to be for this instrument, plus I got a better
          tuner.  On the Palmer, I had initially tried an octave on the
          6th course, but if the 2 different strings were pulled slightly
          off, the intonation was much more offensive than with unison
          strings.  Both instruments have a tastini to help intonation,
          but they are in different places.
          About the string clashing and other assorted buzzes and nasty
          noises - If you hit a string too hard it can buzz on the metal
          frets - something that lute players don't need to worry about.
          With my 2 instruments the feel of the frets is quite different.
          The Rose has lower scallops between each fret, so it's harder to
          get a good clear sound for bar chords. The Palmer has a lovely
          low action and the bar chords are a dream, unless you are
          pulling a string a bit to the side.  The Rose has the string in
          the pairs closer together, which works well with that bit more
          tension. The Palmer has the string further apart and it has
          taken a  while to get used to the spacing
          One more thing about the tension and playability - my borrowed
          bandora, which is old and seems quite high tension, has no
          scallops between the frets, but works well for intonation and
          bar chords. It's biggest problem is that it is quite loud,
          especially when combined with lutes.
          Nancy
          Another interesting bandora issue is that there were (or may
          have been) smaller bandoras. Peter Forrester and Donald Gill
          (and others?) have suggested that bandoras in D,  a fourth
          higher, existed. There are some very difficult stretches in some
          of the bandora solos (but not in the existing bandora consort
          parts, I think). For example, this chord: third course, second
          fret + second course, first fret + first course, fifth fret. On
          an instrument with the first course at about 72cms that's an
          enormous stretch.  (Of course, this might just be an anomaly)
          Stuart
          Nancy Carlin Associates
          P.O. Box 6499
          Concord, CA 94524  USA
          phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582
          web sites - [3]www.nancycarlinassociates.com
          www.groundsanddivisions.info
          Representing:
          FROM WALES - Crasdant  & Carreg Lafar,  FROM ENGLAND - Jez Lowe
          & Jez Lowe & The Bad Pennies, and now representing EARLY MUSIC -
          The Venere Lute Quartet, The Good Pennyworths & Morrongiello &
          Young
          Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA
          web site - [4]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org

   Nancy Carlin Associates
   P.O. Box 6499
   Concord, CA 94524  USA
   web site - [7]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org

   --

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