Subject: Further to: Bar end supports on lutes

From: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 14:46:39 +0000 (GMT)

Further to the recent mailings about using supports to the bar ends of
   lutes (as commonly found on guitars) to avoid then becoming loose,
   there were few responses and the gist seemed to bit that it was a good
   idea and unlikely to injure the instrument's tone.

   This may be the case, but I'd like to insert a note of caution: as far
   as I'm aware no old lute has such bar end supports so we need to be
   very careful before considering their general modern use.  Perhaps the
   slight angle between the rib and belly - a little less than a right
   angle - provides sufficient end support if the bars are fitted
   precisely to the rib and at the exact same angle (not possible on the
   guitar which is a right angle). And, of course, the vast majority of
   lute makers did not seem to make guitars - and vice-versa (few
   exceptions such as Tielke of course and a some workshops) .

    One other factor which provides more secure bar end fixing also occurs
   to me: Mace speaks of a method of sticking on the belly in one
   operation (and of ensuring the bar ends are very well applied with
   glue). It's a procedure I now usually follow and, tho' it can be a bit
   nerve-wracking, the capability of animal glue to be readily remelted
   in-situ allows post fixing adjustments to be easily made (and indeed
   Mace mentions this). If one makes a pig's ear of the whole business one
   can remove again, clean up and try again next day.  It occurs to me
   that the (modern?) method of sticking on a lute belly by working slowly
   round trying to get glue into the join is fine - except when one comes
   to the bar end where it can be difficult to ensure one has worked in
   sufficient glue - in short the bar end may be starved.

   The latest original historic lute I've been able to examine inside in
   detail is a 1773 instrument by Stautinger which exhibits all lute
   construction features and has no bar end supports. Altho an internal
   repair had taken place to the back which had suffered a serious dent,
   access had been made by the rose being cut out (and crudely replaced
   after) rather than the belly being removed;  the original belly
   fixing/gluing was still (I believe) in place - and the external wooden
   liner (as commonly found on 18th century lutes) seemed wholly
   undisturbed. All the bars were still glued securely to the sides (with
   quite a bit of squeeze out evident on a few too).

   In short, if the bar ends are closely fitted to the angled ribs and
   sufficient glue is put onto the ends I think there is no need to
   consider additional supports like those being suggested. But I
   understand very high humidity, in the US especially, may be a
   contributory factor to bar end failure with which we here do not have
   to cope......

   MH

   --

---

From: William Samson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 15:32:46 +0000 (GMT)

Dear Martyn,

   What you say makes perfect sense.  I will continue to follow the
   example set by the old ones.

   Kind regards,

   Bill
   From: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
   To: Lute builder Dmth <[email-masked]>
   Sent: Thursday, 7 February 2013, 14:46
   Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Further to: Bar end supports on lutes
     Further to the recent mailings about using supports to the bar ends
   of
     lutes (as commonly found on guitars) to avoid then becoming loose,
     there were few responses and the gist seemed to bit that it was a
   good
     idea and unlikely to injure the instrument's tone.
     This may be the case, but I'd like to insert a note of caution: as
   far
     as I'm aware no old lute has such bar end supports so we need to be
     very careful before considering their general modern use.  Perhaps
   the
     slight angle between the rib and belly - a little less than a right
     angle - provides sufficient end support if the bars are fitted
     precisely to the rib and at the exact same angle (not possible on the
     guitar which is a right angle). And, of course, the vast majority of
     lute makers did not seem to make guitars - and vice-versa (few
     exceptions such as Tielke of course and a some workshops) .
       One other factor which provides more secure bar end fixing also
   occurs
     to me: Mace speaks of a method of sticking on the belly in one
     operation (and of ensuring the bar ends are very well applied with
     glue). It's a procedure I now usually follow and, tho' it can be a
   bit
     nerve-wracking, the capability of animal glue to be readily remelted
     in-situ allows post fixing adjustments to be easily made (and indeed
     Mace mentions this). If one makes a pig's ear of the whole business
   one
     can remove again, clean up and try again next day.  It occurs to me
     that the (modern?) method of sticking on a lute belly by working
   slowly
     round trying to get glue into the join is fine - except when one
   comes
     to the bar end where it can be difficult to ensure one has worked in
     sufficient glue - in short the bar end may be starved.
     The latest original historic lute I've been able to examine inside in
     detail is a 1773 instrument by Stautinger which exhibits all lute
     construction features and has no bar end supports. Altho an internal
     repair had taken place to the back which had suffered a serious dent,
     access had been made by the rose being cut out (and crudely replaced
     after) rather than the belly being removed;  the original belly
     fixing/gluing was still (I believe) in place - and the external
   wooden
     liner (as commonly found on 18th century lutes) seemed wholly
     undisturbed. All the bars were still glued securely to the sides
   (with
     quite a bit of squeeze out evident on a few too).
     In short, if the bar ends are closely fitted to the angled ribs and
     sufficient glue is put onto the ends I think there is no need to
     consider additional supports like those being suggested. But I
     understand very high humidity, in the US especially, may be a
     contributory factor to bar end failure with which we here do not have
     to cope......
     MH
     --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
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   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: David Van Edwards <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 16:39:08 +0000

Yes, as far as I have observed no lutes were made using support 
blocks, however obvious it would be to give strength. In fact one of 
the commonest problems with amateur made instruments is the tendency 
to make things too strong. It is a maxim to bear in mind that lutes 
sound best when right on the point of collapse! Trembling with fear 
as it were!

I do remember many years ago asking Friedmann Hellwig specifically 
about whether he thought bar ends were glued to the ribs and he said 
quite clearly that he thought not. Maybe accidental glue in the joint 
there, but nothing deliberate he said. He has probably examined  more 
original lutes than anyone, so I'm inclined to take him seriously. 
But of course this is not to deny Martyn's observation of the 
Stautinger mandora, different makers probably had different 
practices, even then.

Best wishes,

David

-- 
The Smokehouse,
6 Whitwell Road,
Norwich,  NR1 4HB      
England.

Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

---

From: William Samson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 18:16:24 +0000 (GMT)

Yikes!  How do professional lute makers manage to sleep at night, with
   their products ready to go 'pop' at any moment?

   Bill
   From: David Van Edwards <[email-masked]>
   To: William Samson <[email-masked]>
   Cc: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>; Lute builder Dmth
   <[email-masked]>
   Sent: Thursday, 7 February 2013, 16:39
   Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Further to: Bar end supports on lutes
   Yes, as far as I have observed no lutes were made using support blocks,
   however obvious it would be to give strength. In fact one of the
   commonest problems with amateur made instruments is the tendency to
   make things too strong. It is a maxim to bear in mind that lutes sound
   best when right on the point of collapse! Trembling with fear as it
   were!
   I do remember many years ago asking Friedmann Hellwig specifically
   about whether he thought bar ends were glued to the ribs and he said
   quite clearly that he thought not. Maybe accidental glue in the joint
   there, but nothing deliberate he said. He has probably examined  more
   original lutes than anyone, so I'm inclined to take him seriously. But
   of course this is not to deny Martyn's observation of the Stautinger
   mandora, different makers probably had different practices, even then.
   Best wishes,
   David
   At 15:32 +0000 7/2/13, William Samson wrote:
   >    From: Martyn Hodgson <[1][email-masked]>
   >    To: Lute builder Dmth <[2][email-masked]>
   >    [1][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   >    --
   >
   > References
   >
   >    1. [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   -- The Smokehouse,
   6 Whitwell Road,
   Norwich,  NR1 4HB      England.
   Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
   Website: [5]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/

   --

References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]
   2. mailto:[email-masked]
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/

---

From: David Van Edwards <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 19:20:54 +0000

I jest of course, but in some ways it IS nerve-wracking for just that reason!

David

-- 
The Smokehouse,
6 Whitwell Road,
Norwich,  NR1 4HB      
England.

---

From: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 09:11:07 +0000 (GMT)

Dear David,

   I well take your point about Hellwig's observations. But, it's not just
   my observations of the Stautinger. More significantly here's what Mace
   has to say (incidentally, he recognises the nerve-wracking aspect of
   the operation and says " Then fear nothing, but boldly proceed to the
   Uniting"....).

   " ....anoint all the Edges Carefully round, where you know they must
   Joyn, and every Barr-end be sure you touch well, ......" .  Of course
   Mace wasn't a professional builder or repairer but I presume he had
   been originally instructed by a London repairer (he says if you don't
   want to repair it yourself there's no choice but to pack it off to
   London).

   regardsa

   Martyn

   --- On Thu, 7/2/13, David Van Edwards <[email-masked]> wrote:

     From: David Van Edwards <[email-masked]>
     Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Further to: Bar end supports on lutes
     To: "William Samson" <[email-masked]>
     Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email-masked]>, "Lute builder
     Dmth" <[email-masked]>
     Date: Thursday, 7 February, 2013, 16:39

   --
   The Smokehouse,
   6 Whitwell Road,
   Norwich,  NR1 4HB
   England.
   Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
   Website: [5]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 09:58:40 -0500 (EST)

Excuse my ignorance, but wouldn't support blocks under the bars be a very possible source of buzzing? ..unless one used glue, in which case top removal would be much more difficult?

-----Original Message-----
From: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
To: David Van Edwards <[email-masked]>
Cc: Lute builder Dmth <[email-masked]>
Sent: Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:18 am
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Further to: Bar end supports on lutes

  Dear David,

--

---

From: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 15:48:43 +0000 (GMT)

I don't see why blocks as such might aggravate buzzing - they're widely
   used on guitars both ancient and modern.  But you'll see from previous
   mailings that their use is not historically found on lutes and I really
   don't think they are necessary so, as mentioned earlier, I'd personally
   not advocate their use.

   MH
   --- On Tue, 12/2/13, [email-masked] <[email-masked]> wrote:

     From: [email-masked] <[email-masked]>
     Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Further to: Bar end supports on lutes
     To: [email-masked]
     Date: Tuesday, 12 February, 2013, 14:58

   Excuse my ignorance, but wouldn't support blocks under the bars be a
   very possible source of buzzing? ..unless one used glue, in which case
   top removal would be much more difficult?
   -----Original Message-----
   From: Martyn Hodgson <[1][email-masked]>
   To: David Van Edwards <[2][email-masked]>
   Cc: Lute builder Dmth <[3][email-masked]>
   Sent: Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:18 am
   Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Further to: Bar end supports on lutes
     Dear David,
      I well take your point about Hellwig's observations. But, it's not
   just
     my observations of the Stautinger. More significantly here's what
   Mace
     has to say (incidentally, he recognises the nerve-wracking aspect of
     the operation and says " Then fear nothing, but boldly proceed to the
     Uniting"....).
      " ....anoint all the Edges Carefully round, where you know they must
     Joyn, and every Barr-end be sure you touch well, ......" .  Of course
     Mace wasn't a professional builder or repairer but I presume he had
     been originally instructed by a London repairer (he says if you don't
     want to repair it yourself there's no choice but to pack it off to
     London).
      regardsa
      Martyn
      --- On Thu, 7/2/13, David Van Edwards <[4][email-masked]>
   wrote:
        From: David Van Edwards <[5][email-masked]>
       Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Further to: Bar end supports on lutes
       To: "William Samson" <[6][email-masked]>
       Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" <[7][email-masked]>, "Lute builder
       Dmth" <[8][email-masked]>
       Date: Thursday, 7 February, 2013, 16:39
      Yes, as far as I have observed no lutes were made using support
     blocks, however obvious it would be to give strength. In fact one of
     the commonest problems with amateur made instruments is the tendency
     to make things too strong. It is a maxim to bear in mind that lutes
     sound best when right on the point of collapse! Trembling with fear
     as it were!
     I do remember many years ago asking Friedmann Hellwig specifically
     about whether he thought bar ends were glued to the ribs and he said
     quite clearly that he thought not. Maybe accidental glue in the joint
     there, but nothing deliberate he said. He has probably examined  more
     original lutes than anyone, so I'm inclined to take him seriously.
     But of course this is not to deny Martyn's observation of the
     Stautinger mandora, different makers probably had different
     practices, even then.
     Best wishes,
     David
     At 15:32 +0000 7/2/13, William Samson wrote:
     >    From: Martyn Hodgson <[1][9][email-masked]>
     >    To: Lute builder Dmth <[2][10][email-masked]>
     >      there were few responses and the gist seemed to bit that it
   was
     a
     >      This may be the case, but I'd like to insert a note of
   caution:
     as
     >    far
     >      as I'm aware no old lute has such bar end supports so we need
   to
     be
     >      glue). It's a procedure I now usually follow and, tho' it can
   be
     a
     >      can remove again, clean up and try again next day.  It occurs
   to
     me
     >      repair had taken place to the back which had suffered a
   serious
     dent,
     >      In short, if the bar ends are closely fitted to the angled
   ribs
     and
     >      contributory factor to bar end failure with which we here do
   not
     have
     >    [1][3][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
     >
     >    --
     >
     >References
     >
     >    1. [4][12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
     --
     The Smokehouse,
     6 Whitwell Road,
     Norwich,  NR1 4HB
     England.
     Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
     Website: [5][13]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk
      --
   References
      1.
   [14]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
   .uk
     2.
   [15]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
   uth.edu
     3. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
     4. [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
     5. [18]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/
   --

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?[email-masked]
   3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
   4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?[email-masked]
   5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?[email-masked]
   6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
   7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
   8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
   9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  13. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/
  14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=[email-masked]
  16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  18. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/