Subject: Cassein glue

From: William Samson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 09:33:40 +0000 (GMT)

Hi,
   An idle question here - I saw on TV how to make casein glue - using
   skimmed milk, bicarb and vinegar.  Apparently it's been around since
   ancient Egyptian
   times. http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_8474158_make-casein-glue.html
   Do you know of any uses it might have had in instrument making, or any
   evidence that it was used at all?
   Bill

   --

---

From: Martyn Hodgson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 10:15:36 +0000 (GMT)

Dear Bill,

   Many years ago, before I knew better, I made my first instrument with
   a propriety wood glue 'Cascamite' which I thought at the time was a
   cassein type adhesive (the similarity in the name). And it was
   certainly strong, gap filling (benefit for a novice!) and took plenty
   of time to go off (a mixed blessing).  But on reading the label shortly
   after I saw it was made using a urea based compound - which I took to
   mean piss rather than diary products........

   I seem to recall some make use of it for gluing parchment for roses
   etc. I think FoMRHI archives might have something.

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Fri, 15/3/13, William Samson <[email-masked]> wrote:

     From: William Samson <[email-masked]>
     Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Cassein glue
     To: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
     Date: Friday, 15 March, 2013, 9:33

      Hi,
      An idle question here - I saw on TV how to make casein glue - using
      skimmed milk, bicarb and vinegar.  Apparently it's been around since
      ancient Egyptian
      times. [1]http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_8474158_make-casein-glue.html
      Do you know of any uses it might have had in instrument making, or
   any
      evidence that it was used at all?
      Bill
      --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_8474158_make-casein-glue.html
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: Margaret Munck <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:03:24 +0000

Artists use(d) casein glue to glue up panels for painting. The
   advantage is that it is waterproof so isn't softened by the gessoing
   process.

     Casein Glue for Joining
     If it is necessary to glue up a panel, the best thing to use is the
     cheese and lime glue which Cennino describes in Chapter CXII. [The
     Craftsman's Handbook, p. 68.] I have seen a medieval panel, made up
     with this cement, which was [11] so completely eaten away by worms
     that the cement which originally joined two parts together stood out
     in a thin ridge half an inch high, with the marks of the grain of
     the wood visible on both sides of it. It is durable, adhesive, and,
     once dry, insoluble in water. This insolubility is a great
     advantage; for the surface of a panel is kept moist for a long time
     in the process of gessoing, and ordinary glues tend to soften
     dangerously if they are kept damp. If the panel is so wide that it
     cannot be cut from a single plank, two or more planks may be put
     together with this glue, with broad clamps to hold them while it
     dries, of course. Moldings may be glued to the panel with it, and
     nailed through in addition with copper nails, or brads. There are
     several proprietary casein glues on the market now which are good
     and useful, but for gluing wooden panels Cennino's lime-casein
     recipe is better. The alkaline principles of the trade casein glues
     are more soluble than lime, and may do damage; and the dried film
     which these products leave behind resembles a glue, while the lime
     mixture resembles a cement, and is better suited to use in a joint
     between two pieces of wood. Cennino's recipe is easily followed,
     using any lean cheese, "mouse cheese," or even "cottage" cheese,
     consisting of fresh curds strained from the whey. Be sure to get
     pure lime, and not the compound material called "Hydraulic lime"
     which many builders use instead. (D Thompson, The Practice of
     Tempera Painting, 1936, pp10-11)

   Cennino's recipe is found in his book, "Il Libro dell'Arte" from about
   1390.:

     To Make a Glue out of Lime and Cheese.
     Chapter C XII
     There is a glue used by workers in wood; this is made of cheese.
     After putting it to soak in water, work it over with a little
     quicklime, using a little board with both hands. Put it between the
     boards; it joins them and fastens them together well.

   A translation of the full text of Cennino's fascinating book is
   [1]here.
   I suppose it might have been used for gluing up the panels of a
   harpsichord lid prior to painting, but generally it is too hard and
   permanent for instrument making.
   I once found and used an old tin of Casco, which was the predecessor of
   Cascamite. It worked fine but smelt distinctly cheesy, and left a
   brownish stain on the wood even though it was very pale itself.
   Regards
   M

   On 15 March 2013 10:15, Martyn Hodgson <[2][email-masked]>
   wrote:

        Dear Bill,
        Many years ago, before I knew better, I made my first instrument
     with
        a propriety wood glue 'Cascamite' which I thought at the time was
     a
        cassein type adhesive (the similarity in the name). And it was
        certainly strong, gap filling (benefit for a novice!) and took
     plenty
        of time to go off (a mixed blessing).  But on reading the label
     shortly
        after I saw it was made using a urea based compound - which I
     took to
        mean piss rather than diary products........
        I seem to recall some make use of it for gluing parchment for
     roses
        etc. I think FoMRHI archives might have something.
        regards
        Martyn
        --- On Fri, 15/3/13, William Samson <[3][email-masked]>
     wrote:
          From: William Samson <[4][email-masked]>
          Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Cassein glue
          To: "[5][email-masked]"
     <[6][email-masked]>
          Date: Friday, 15 March, 2013, 9:33

         Hi,
         An idle question here - I saw on TV how to make casein glue -
   using
         skimmed milk, bicarb and vinegar.  Apparently it's been around
   since
         ancient Egyptian

           times.
     [1][7]http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_8474158_make-casein-glue.html

         Do you know of any uses it might have had in instrument making,
   or
      any
         evidence that it was used at all?
         Bill
         --
      To get on or off this list see list information at

        [2][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
        --
     References
        1. [9]http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_8474158_make-casein-glue.html
        2. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.noteaccess.com/Texts/Cennini/
   2. mailto:[email-masked]
   3. mailto:[email-masked]
   4. mailto:[email-masked]
   5. mailto:[email-masked]
   6. mailto:[email-masked]
   7. http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_8474158_make-casein-glue.html
   8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   9. http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_8474158_make-casein-glue.html
  10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: David Van Edwards <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 12:21:12 +0000

Dear Bill,

Casein glue was certainly used extensively in the middle ages by 
painters to join the boards of their painting panels before preparing 
with gesso etc. In fact quite a common recorded item in the invoices 
they submitted to their commissioning patrons was for the cheese 
needed to make the glue. So there must have been other recipes 
besides skimmed milk.

Best wishes,

David

At 09:33 +0000 15/3/13, William Samson wrote:
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

-- 
The Smokehouse,
6 Whitwell Road,
Norwich,  NR1 4HB      
England.

Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

---

From: David Van Edwards <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 13:36:18 +0000

Dear Bill,

   Margaret beat me to it with the detailed quotes from Cennini and
   Thompson but while I was looking at the Cennini I noticed that his
   recipe for fish glue says that it was used for lute mending, It sounds
   from the word "leaf" as if it is isinglass:

                HOW FISH GLUE IS USED, AND HOW IT IS TEMPERED.

                                CHAPTER CVIII

   There is a glue which is known as fish glue. This glue is made from
   various kinds of fish. If you put the little piece, or leaf, in your
   mouth, just as it is, until it gets a little wet, and rub it on sheep
   parchments or other parchments, this fastens them together very
   securely. To dissolve it,2

   It is good and excellent for mending lutes and other fine paper,
   wooden, or bone objects. When you put it on the fire, put in half a
   goblet of clear water for each leaf.

   2 We may supply "you must put it on the fire," or something of that
   sort; or possibly the whole sentence should be recast:  A struggierla e
   buna. E perfettisma..... and translated, "It is good if you dissolve
   it. It is the best thing for mending..."

   Translated Daniel Thompson pp 66-7

   Best wishes,

   David

        Hi,
     or any

--

   The Smokehouse,
   6 Whitwell Road,
   Norwich,  NR1 4HB
   England.

   --

---

From: William Samson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 15:49:15 +0000 (GMT)

Thanks for all the interesting replies!

   I came across another interesting use of glue the other day - I bought
   a very cheap uke (which actually worked pretty well) and decided to
   take it apart.  It was held together with hot-melt glue of the type
   used in glue guns.  It came apart reasonably cleanly when I warmed up
   the joints, though the glue residue behaved like chewing gum and was
   hard to remove from the components.

   I have used this kind of glue to tack together the two sides of a
   pegbox when drilling pilot holes for the pegs - Much less bothersome
   and more secure than trying to hold them together with clamps.  A
   little heat allows them to be separated.

   Bill

   --