From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Mon Jan 6 15:43:33 2003 Received: from lakemtao01.cox.net (lakemtao01.cox.net [68.1.17.244]) by cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.1/8.11.4) with ESMTP id h06KhRnc022281; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:43:32 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030106154005.026da888@pop.east.cox.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 15:44:00 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: Luthier@yahoogroups.com From: corun@medievalist.org Subject: Arnault drawing Does anyone know if there is a poster sized reproduction of the lute plans drawn by Henri Arnault of Zwolle available anywhere? Thank you, Craig From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Tue Jan 7 07:20:18 2003 Received: from mailhost1.dircon.co.uk (mailhost1.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.65]) by cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.1/8.11.4) with ESMTP id h07CKInc007098; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 07:20:18 -0500 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 11:29:58 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: corun@medievalist.org Cc: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Luthier@yahoogroups.com From: David Van Edwards Subject: Re: Arnault drawing Dear Craig, As far as I know the largest reproduction is in Ian Harwood's article in the Lute Society Journal of 1960. However as the design is defined entirely in terms of proportions not absolute measurements, and as the geometric procedure is translated in the text of Ian's article, you can draw out an accurate version at any size you like from the account. Best wishes, David At 3:44 PM -0500 6/1/03, corun@medievalist.org wrote: >Does anyone know if there is a poster sized reproduction of the lute plans >drawn by Henri Arnault of Zwolle available anywhere? > >Thank you, >Craig -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Tue Jan 7 12:43:09 2003 Received: from timbretone.com (h24-69-176-36.pk.shawcable.net [24.69.176.36]) by cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.1/8.11.4) with SMTP id h07Hh6nc015091 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 12:43:07 -0500 Message-Id: <200301071743.h07Hh6nc015091@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 09:40:47 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: From: "Davey J. Lapeyrouse" Subject: Timbre Tonewood Decamber Newsletter
January to March 2003 News Letter
www.timbretone.com

Dear Luthier,

I would like to wish everyone a prosperous and exciting new year!

I would like to remind everyone that we will have a both at the NAMM in Anaheim (January 16th to the 19th) again this year and will be able to bring down orders and meet with anyone that can make it to the show. Our booth is # 1215 in Hall E. There will be four of us there to meet with you and we will have a full selection of our products, including our new Maple line. All our samples will be for sale at the show, but if you require a specific item or would like some custom cut Flamed Big Leaf Maple please contact me ASAP.

I will be adding new products to the retail price list as I get them so please keep an eye on our updated for 2003 product list.

Specials:
  • #1 Grade Western Red Cedar Special-Two piece, book-matched sets, Classic size.
                                          $20.00 USD a set

  • HAA Engelmann Spruce Special- Two piece, book-matched sets, Dreadnought size.
                                          $25.00 USD a set

  • AA+ Sitka/Engelmann Bracewood Special- Refer to retail price guide for exact dimensions.
                                          With every purchase over $500.00 USD we will include 10                                               pieces of our Sitka brace wood.


I look forward to working with you to find the tonewood that will surpass your expectations and needs. Please contact me if there is a product that you do not see, but would like us to carry or a certain characteristic you would like in your tonewood.

I look forward to seeing everyone that can make it to NAMM in LA.

Best regards,

Davey J. Lapeyrouse
Retail Sales, Timbre Tonewood Ltd.
retail@timbretone.com
Ph: (250) 248 5939		 -- From lute-request Wed Jan 8 00:17:15 2003 Received: from imo-r04.mx.aol.com (imo-r04.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.100]) by cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.1/8.11.4) with ESMTP id h085HFnc032195; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 00:17:15 -0500 Message-ID: <116.1d091e0e.2b4d0e50@aol.com> X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 00:17:04 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 To: david@vanedwards.co.uk, corun@medievalist.org CC: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Luthier@yahoogroups.com From: KennethBeLute@aol.com Subject: Re: Arnault drawing In a message dated 1/7/03 7:22:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, david@vanedwards.co.uk writes: > As far as I know the largest reproduction is in Ian Harwood's article > in the Lute Society Journal of 1960. > There an even larger and very clear photo Arnault's drawing on p.66 of Jeremy Montagu's "The World of Medieval and Renaissance Musical Instruments". Kenneth Be Cleveland, Ohio -- From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Sat Jan 11 19:14:02 2003 Received: from jumpjuno2.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.1/8.11.4) with SMTP id h0C0DwZU016016 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 19:14:02 -0500 Message-ID: <20030111.181904.-719389.2.heiman.daniel@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 18:19:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: Daniel F Heiman Subject: Fret calculator Luthiers: Several places on the net there are sites that provide ways to calculate fret placements for an unequal temperament on a lute or other fretted instrument. The ones I have looked at have always struck me as unsatisfactory because they are typically not documented, and because they each provide only one solution normally characterized as "meantone." There are obviously many different solutions provided in the historical literature, and in an attempt to give more information to modern builders, teachers and players, I have constructed a spreadsheet that will calculate fret locations according to several systems that may be of particular interest. It is posted on the web site of the Lute Society of America (http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org), on the Downloads page (http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/download/index.html#frets). It is not necessarily in final form, since most of the calculations are based on a secondary source (the Murray Barbour book), and for that reason some are only correct to three significant figures, since he sometimes gives only 3-digit cents values. I am hoping to consult more of the original sources (besides the Dowland), but that will take some time, since I am not near a good university library. If any of you have copies of the relevant pages from facsimiles or modern editions of the old works that are referenced on the spreadsheet, I would appreciate it if you would send them. Any other constructive comments are welcome as well. Regards, Daniel Heiman . ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Mon Jan 13 06:48:08 2003 Received: from mailout11.sul.t-online.com (mailout11.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.85]) by cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.1/8.11.4) with ESMTP id h0DBm7ZU023179; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 06:48:08 -0500 Message-ID: <3E22B480.12921.E3B970@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02, DE v4.02 R1) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 12:43:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, corun@medievalist.org CC: Luthier@yahoogroups.com From: Matthias.Wagner_Lauten@t-online.de Subject: Re: Arnault drawing Dear Craig, the biggest reproduction of the Zwolle drawing I know is the following book: Lesure, François; Henri-Arnaut Les traités d'Henri-Arnaut de Zwolle et de divers anonymes : (Paris: Bibliothèque Nationale, ms. latin 7295) ; Faks. d. Hs. u. komm. Übertagung / mit e. Nachw. v. François Lesure. - Neudr. der Ausg. Paris 1932. - Kassel : Bärenreiter, 1972. - XX, 58 S. : Ill., graph. Darst. + 23 Planches; (franz.,altfranz., franz., lat.) Reihe: (Documenta musicologica : 2. Reihe ; 4) ISBN 3-7618-0266-8 Einl. franz., Text lat. u. altfranz. best wishes Matthias > Does anyone know if there is a poster sized reproduction of the lute plans > drawn by Henri Arnault of Zwolle available anywhere? > > Thank you, > Craig > > > -------------------------------------------------- Matthias Wagner Klemmbachstr. 11 a D - 79410 Badenweiler - Schweighof Tel. +49-7632 - 82 86 95, Fax: +49-7632 - 82 898 68 e-mail: Matthias.Wagner_Lauten@t-online.de http://www.lutes-strings.de From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Mon Jan 13 17:42:30 2003 Received: from mailout09.sul.t-online.com (mailout09.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.84]) by cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.1/8.11.4) with ESMTP id h0DMgUZU009316; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:42:30 -0500 Message-ID: <3E234DE5.6911.22C6FDE@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02, DE v4.02 R1) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 23:38:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, corun@medievalist.org CC: Luthier@yahoogroups.com From: Matthias.Wagner_Lauten@t-online.de Subject: Re: Arnault drawing Dear Craig, the biggest reproduction of the Zwolle drawing I know is the following book: Lesure, François; Henri-Arnaut Les traités d'Henri-Arnaut de Zwolle et de divers anonymes : (Paris: Bibliothèque Nationale, ms. latin 7295) ; Faks. d. Hs. u. komm. Übertagung / mit e. Nachw. v. François Lesure. - Neudr. der Ausg. Paris 1932. - Kassel : Bärenreiter, 1972. - XX, 58 S. : Ill., graph. Darst. + 23 Planches; (franz.,altfranz., franz., lat.) Reihe: (Documenta musicologica : 2. Reihe ; 4) ISBN 3-7618-0266-8 Einl. franz., Text lat. u. altfranz. best wishes Matthias > Does anyone know if there is a poster sized reproduction of the lute plans > drawn by Henri Arnault of Zwolle available anywhere? > > Thank you, > Craig > > > -------------------------------------------------- Matthias Wagner, Lute making string distribution:Savarez, Aquila, Kürschner, Pyramid, Pirastro Klemmbachstr. 11 a D - 79410 Badenweiler - Schweighof Tel. +49-7632 - 82 86 95, Fax: +49-7632 82 898 68 e-mail: lutes-strings@tesionmail.de http://www.lutes-strings.de http://www.music-strings.de ( strings - shop ) From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Sun Feb 2 00:29:01 2003 Received: from outmail4.pacificnet.net (outmail4.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.64]) by cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.1/8.11.4) with ESMTP id h125T05U011443 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 00:29:00 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20030201211100.00ad8100@pop.pacificnet.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 21:30:17 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: Richard Lees Subject: Are There Strings attached ?... Hello All: Its been quite a while for me, a major move a new gig teaching painting and finally my lute is finishing up.... The top has just been glued on, and its time to think about strings. I was very appreciative of David Van Edwards string descriptions, as usual with David, elegant and informative. however there were a few questions which surfaced recently during yet another bout of insomnia regarding same, I think it was around 3 am?.... May I bother you and our list folks with these questions, its about cost vs tone, and whether or not with gut strings as an example (all things being equal, ie gauge etc ), whether or not there is a sonic difference between makers. When I was playing guitar so many years ago, Saverez, La Bella (black and amber) Augustine, Concertiste etc were all basically guitar sets with nylon trebles and wound basses but each had quite a different feel and sound about them. Would the same differences apply between for instance the gut top strings from Damian Dlugolecki as opposed to those from Gamut or Aquila? Likewise I noted that Gamut offers what were called gimped and pistoy style strings in their catalogue . Do these have a recognizable quality? Likewise as I am sure all of us are, given budgets , the attraction of nylgut is there also, does one loose a good deal of character here? Anyway, and in other words, any help on string types and timbre to buttress my muy beginners understanding would be much appreciated!! hope all is well with you all, and what ever happened to the players net? 'All seems quite on that front.... Best Richard Lees Richard Lees 1022 East Parkman Street Altadena CA 91001 email: relees@pacificnet.net From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Thu Feb 6 17:12:52 2003 Received: from smtp.easynet.es (smtp.easynet.es [213.139.0.65]) by cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.1/8.11.4) with ESMTP id h16MCp5U001000 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:12:52 -0500 Message-ID: <007a01c2ce00$f95ae240$73088bd5@filasa.fil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:56:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "lute-builder" From: "Jaume Bosser" Subject: pica powder Hello everybody, does anybody know a supplier of mica powder ? = (preferabily in Europe).=20 I want it to prepare David Rubio=B4s mineral ground. I case I couldn=B4t = find mica powder, I wonder if I could put instead fine pummice - as it = could do the same function of pore filling. Does anybody have any = experience and / or advice about that? Thank you, Jaume Bosser Cal Cinto de la creu 08787 - Orp=ED tel. 93-8080200 bossertoca@portalatino.net -- From lute-request Sun Mar 2 16:38:09 2003 Received: from hotmail.com (dav75.pav3.hotmail.com [64.4.38.179]) by cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.1/8.11.4) with ESMTP id h22Lc7Tc022846; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 16:38:08 -0500 Message-ID: X-Mailer: MSN Explorer 7.02.0011.2700 Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 16:34:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: , From: "marco delellis" =20 Hi my name is Marco De Lellis I am a Harpsichord maker and a Piano rebiul= der. I have available space to rent in my shop located in Astoria Queens =20 N.Y. ,for a lute, guitar or woodwind instrument maker or repair. =20 Please contact me at dlmarco64@msn.com Thank you Marco =20 =20 -- From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Sat Mar 29 03:08:52 2003 Received: from spf1.us.outblaze.com (205-158-62-158.outblaze.com [205.158.62.158]) by cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id h2T88pwR006461 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2003 03:08:52 -0500 Message-ID: <20030329080844.18662.qmail@operamail.com> X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 08:08:44 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aron@image.dk, "Dynamica List" , e.hilgersom@hccnet.nl, "Elizabeth Kilburn" , lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu, michael.mccartney@ntlworld.com From: =?iso-8859-1?B?TmrlbCBCZW5kaXhlbg== ?= Subject: Virus warning Dear Friends. I do not usually respond to virus warnings, because they usually turn out to be spoofs. This however I know from a friend of mine in Denmark who actually had his entire hard disk deleted! He recieved an email that appeared to be an article or something regarding the World Trade Centre called "WTC Survivors". When he opened the e-mail that was the last thing he did on that computer (untill reinstalling it)! This actually happened. Best wishes, Njål Bendixen __________________________________________________ Njaal Bendixen njaal@operamail.com -- ____________________________________________ http://www.operamail.com Get OperaMail Premium today - USD 29.99/year Powered by Outblaze From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Sat Mar 29 07:21:58 2003 Received: from lakemtao02.cox.net (lakemtao02.cox.net [68.1.17.243]) by cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id h2TCLwwR009993 for ; Sat, 29 Mar 2003 07:21:58 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030329072208.0250ef00@pop.east.cox.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 07:23:25 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: corun@medievalist.org Subject: Re: Virus warning http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/wtc.survivor.hoax.html At 08:08 AM 3/29/2003 +0000, you wrote: > Dear Friends. > >I do not usually respond to virus warnings, because they usually turn out >to be spoofs. This however I know from a friend of mine in Denmark who >actually had his entire hard disk deleted! > >He recieved an email that appeared to be an article or something regarding >the World Trade Centre called "WTC Survivors". When he opened the e-mail >that was the last thing he did on that computer (untill reinstalling it)! > >This actually happened. > > >Best wishes, > > >Njål Bendixen > > >__________________________________________________ > >Njaal Bendixen >njaal@operamail.com > > >-- >____________________________________________ >http://www.operamail.com >Get OperaMail Premium today - USD 29.99/year > > >Powered by Outblaze > > > > >____________________________________________________________ >Free 20MB Web Site Hosting and Personalized E-mail Service! >Get It Now At Doteasy.com http://www.doteasy.com/et/ From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Fri Apr 25 03:33:58 2003 Received: from smtp.easynet.es (smtp.easynet.es [213.139.0.65]) by cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id h3P7XvRm016747 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 03:33:58 -0400 Message-ID: <000c01c30722$ac990da0$62088bd5@filasa.fil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 11:53:08 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "lute-builder" , From: "Jaume Bosser" Subject: vihuelas with fluted ribs Hello every body, I am preparing an article, for accompaniing = a CD on vihuela music, about the vaulted back vihuela with fluted ribs = (in the style of the RCM Belcior Dias guitar or the Paris E.0748 = vihuela). So I would like to collect some information on modern = reconstructions of such kind of back. So I would be grateful, if any of you or anybody that you know, have = done modern reconstructions, please fill the short questions below : Name of the maker: Year of the first reconstruction : Number of reconstructions made : This is enough for my purpose, but, if you wish, you can answer also = these additional questions : Model on wich you based your reconstructions (even if differently = scaled) : Wood(s) used for the flutes ribs, and comments : Are you interested in receive the results of this consultation ? : Any additional comments : Please send your answer to my adress below=20 Thanks everybody for your help, Jaume Bosser Cal Cinto de la creu 08787 - Orp=ED tel. 93-8080200 bossertoca@portalatino.net -- From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Fri Apr 25 07:56:03 2003 Received: from lakemtao02.cox.net (lakemtao02.cox.net [68.1.17.243]) by cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id h3PBu3Rm021546 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:56:03 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030425074328.04f1d610@pop.east.cox.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:43:39 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: corun@medievalist.org Subject: Re: vihuelas with fluted ribs Jaume wrote: > I am preparing an article, for accompaniing = >a CD on vihuela music, about the vaulted back vihuela with fluted ribs = >(in the style of the RCM Belcior Dias guitar or the Paris E.0748 = >vihuela). So I would like to collect some information on modern = >reconstructions of such kind of back. > > So I would be grateful, if any of you or anybody that you know, have = >done modern reconstructions, please fill the short questions below : If this is the vihuela I'm thinking about, Steven Barber has done considerable research on it and has built a very nice reproduction. You can see it and read about his work at his web site; http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/ Regards, Craig From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Wed Jun 11 22:52:07 2003 Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id h5C2q7C9021381 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:52:07 -0400 Message-ID: <20030611.215640.-733491.4.heiman.daniel@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 21:56:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: cpu@duke.edu, d.hoban@tcu.edu, artsguy@sbcglobal.net From: Daniel F Heiman Subject: Database of Historical Lutes The "Lautenweltadressbuch," a database of extant historical lutes, is now on line on the Lute Society of America website. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/index.html The database is provided courtesy of Klaus Martius. Corrections and additions to the data should be directed to him (see the documentation on the site). Please notify me of any problems with the operation of the user interface. Regards, Daniel Heiman . ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Thu Jul 10 10:31:50 2003 Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6AEVo9E020301 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:31:50 -0400 Message-ID: <002301c346ef$fee9f760$a8247f18@dschramm> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:31:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: From: "David Schramm" Reply-To: "David Schramm" Subject: Black Lights Where is a good place to buy the uv lights for the drying cabinet in the = USA? David Schramm Clovis, CA http://schrammguitars.com -- From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Thu Jul 10 10:43:16 2003 Received: from lakemtao07.cox.net (lakemtao07.cox.net [68.1.17.114]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6AEhC9E020591 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:43:16 -0400 Message-Id: <20030710144312.DYGG26675.lakemtao07.cox.net@smtp.central.cox.net> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:43:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: Reply-To: corun@medievalist.org Subject: Re: Black Lights David wrote: > > Where is a good place to buy the uv lights for the drying cabinet in the = > USA? I would think any place that carries flourescent lamps and lighting fixtures. Probably not the average Home Depot, but you could check there too. Craig From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Thu Jul 10 11:47:58 2003 Received: from cassiopeia.email.starband.net (cassiopeia.email.starband.net [148.78.247.122]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6AFlk9E022687 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 11:47:58 -0400 Message-ID: <003001c346f3$02d7cc00$235b3f94@computer> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:53:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David Schramm" , From: "Michael Thames" Subject: Re: Black Lights David, You can get your UV lights At just about any major lighting store that deals with supplying electricians parts, I don't think you can get them at home depot, and the problem is finding someone who knows about these kinds of lights, most home depot sale people won't know what your talking about. You need whats called a UV B light they are white bulbs not the black light ones. Don't get the kind that barber shops use to sterilize there combs. those have a clear glass and emit a intense blue light, They will not only kill germs,but they will give you skin caner very quickly, and insurance companies won't allow barber shops to use them anymore, because of the high risk of cancer. Also, when you make your cabinet be sure to mount the ballasts out side the cabinet, and put a humidifier inside the cabinet. With the ballasts outside is amazing still how much heat the lights emit. I almost destroyed a guitar the first time I used it. The humidity got very low and inside the cabinet the heat was intense. Lucky I decided to check it before I went to bed , if I didn't I'm sure it would have been in pieces in the morning. good luck, Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Schramm" To: Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:31 AM Subject: Black Lights > > Where is a good place to buy the uv lights for the drying cabinet in the = > USA? > > David Schramm > Clovis, CA > http://schrammguitars.com > -- > From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Thu Jul 10 19:14:00 2003 Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6ANE09E003968 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:14:00 -0400 Message-ID: <018a01c34734$b82f87a0$31664bab@chad> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 18:43:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: From: "Chadwick Neal" Reply-To: "Chadwick Neal" Subject: Re: Black Lights I also had a problem with dryness. In fact the carving on the back of the pegbox split down the middle, which had to be replaced. I taped up all of the seams on the box, because I had a dog at the time and was concerned about blinding her. I used a stainless steel pan in the bottom (mine was a vertical box) and simply hooked up a direct current C.P.U cooling fan to a lantern battery. it blows very gently across the pan of water (surface area is key here) and kept the humidity around 40% with the lights on all day. I bought the bulbs from a local electrical supply. Chad Neal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Thames" To: "David Schramm" ; Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 10:53 AM Subject: Re: Black Lights > David, > You can get your UV lights At just about any major lighting store that > deals with supplying electricians parts, I don't think you can get them at > home depot, and the problem is finding someone who knows about these kinds > of lights, most home depot sale people won't know what your talking about. > You need whats called a UV B light they are white bulbs not the black light > ones. Don't get the kind that barber shops use to sterilize there combs. > those have a clear glass and emit a intense blue light, They will not only > kill germs,but they will give you skin caner very quickly, and insurance > companies won't allow barber shops to use them anymore, because of the high > risk of cancer. > Also, when you make your cabinet be sure to mount the ballasts out side > the cabinet, and put a humidifier inside the cabinet. With the ballasts > outside is amazing still how much heat the lights emit. I almost destroyed > a guitar the first time I used it. The humidity got very low and inside the > cabinet the heat was intense. Lucky I decided to check it before I went to > bed , if I didn't I'm sure it would have been in pieces in the morning. > good luck, > Michael Thames > Luthier > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Schramm" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:31 AM > Subject: Black Lights > > > > > > Where is a good place to buy the uv lights for the drying cabinet in the = > > USA? > > > > David Schramm > > Clovis, CA > > http://schrammguitars.com > > -- > > > > > From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Fri Jul 11 03:57:22 2003 Received: from mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.116]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6B7vM9E014019 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 03:57:22 -0400 Message-ID: <00d801c34781$bac790a0$fb08540c@oemcomputer> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 02:53:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David Schramm" , From: "Robert Compton" Subject: Re: Black Lights I've been trying to find my link to "topbulb" but can't find it at present. do a search on that name and it'll come up. they carry what you need. the real UV lights are not blacklights ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Schramm" To: Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:31 AM Subject: Black Lights > Where is a good place to buy the uv lights for the drying cabinet in the = > USA? > > David Schramm > Clovis, CA > http://schrammguitars.com > -- > From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Fri Jul 11 06:46:37 2003 Received: from eagle.sasktel.net (eagle.sasktel.net [142.165.19.3]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6BAka9E016896 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 06:46:37 -0400 Message-id: <007201c34799$5029f040$a669a58e@kimtrav> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 04:43:04 -0600 MIME-version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: travis carey Reply-to: travis carey Subject: rose barring Hello lute builders, I have a question about gluiing the small (2x2 mm) bars across the rose. Can anyone tell me how you handle these things? I've read that these bars are scorched on their ends (not sure how that's done), but are they also actually glued across the pattern? This is what I've done with my first two lutes, painstakingly dabbing tiny droplets of glue on the pattern, then placing the bar and being very careful not to rub it around or otherwise cause glue to run down into the rose. It's very nerve-wracking work, especially when I've inked the bars black, because then there's the added worry of the ink staining the rose (something I'd rather not contemplate). I can't help thinking there must be a better way. Cheers, Travis Carey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Travis Carey 406 5th St East Saskatoon, SK Canada S7H 1E9 (306) 343-4939 eMail: tcarey@sk.sympatico.ca From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Fri Jul 11 07:06:38 2003 Received: from lakemtao02.cox.net (lakemtao02.cox.net [68.1.17.243]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6BB6b9E017343 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:06:38 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030711065419.02359e90@pop.east.cox.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:06:10 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: corun@medievalist.org Subject: Re: rose barring Travis wrote: >Hello lute builders, > >I have a question about gluiing the small (2x2 mm) bars across the rose. >Can anyone tell me how you handle these things? I've read that these bars >are scorched on their ends (not sure how that's done), but are they also >actually glued across the pattern? This is what I've done with my first two >lutes, painstakingly dabbing tiny droplets of glue on the pattern, then >placing the bar and being very careful not to rub it around or otherwise >cause glue to run down into the rose. It's very nerve-wracking work, >especially when I've inked the bars black, because then there's the added >worry of the ink staining the rose (something I'd rather not contemplate). >I can't help thinking there must be a better way. I've never heard of scorching the ends. But yes, they are glued across the pattern. This is because this is the thinnest part of the sound board (usually scraped thinner than the rest of the sound board to facilitate the carving of the rose) and the bars help strengthen it. But if you're worried about ink staining the rose you could always paint the bars with a matt enamel paint or some kind of wood stain rather than ink. Of course you're going to put less glue on the bits that actually touch the rose than you will on the ends to either side of the rose. Regards, Craig From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Fri Jul 11 09:56:49 2003 Received: from mpmail1.accesstoledo.com (mpmail1.accesstoledo.com [208.16.180.231]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6BDuk9E020378 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 09:56:49 -0400 Message-ID: <3F0EC250.8070005@buckeye-express.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 09:57:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: Timothy Motz Subject: Re: rose barring I used a technical drawing pen to ink the tops of the bars after I glued them in place. If you use a fine enough pen, you can get close to the wood of the rose without danger of the ink leaking onto it. These aren't quill-type pens; the tips look like miniature tubes with thin needles inside them. The brand I have is a Rotring Rapidoliner and is available at art supply stores. It uses real pigment ink that won't fade over time. I painted the sides of the bars with artist's acrylic paint. But I had only a few bars and not a very complicated rose pattern. I don't know if real lute builders do it this way. I'm doing this as a hobby and just making things up as I go along. Tim Motz Toledo, Ohio From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Fri Jul 11 10:29:21 2003 Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6BETL9E021351 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:29:21 -0400 Message-ID: <1B8DF176.0C65B05F.007BA589@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:29:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tamotz@buckeye-express.com, lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: Mjones32@aol.com Subject: Re: rose barring I dyed the bars on my lute with very strong coffee ! It seemed 'natural' and gave a nice deep brown colour that is quite hard to see below the light colour of the soundboard, Martin From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Fri Jul 11 14:44:41 2003 Received: from cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.211]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6BIie9E028838 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:44:41 -0400 Message-ID: <000701c347dd$30379780$e2d4193e@nmbtc> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:53:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Lute-Builders" From: "Martin Shepherd" Subject: Re: rose barring ----- Original Message ----- From: travis carey To: Sent: 11 July 2003 11:43 Subject: rose barring > Hello lute builders, > > I have a question about gluiing the small (2x2 mm) bars across the rose. > Can anyone tell me how you handle these things? I've read that these bars > are scorched on their ends (not sure how that's done), but are they also > actually glued across the pattern? This is what I've done with my first two > lutes, painstakingly dabbing tiny droplets of glue on the pattern, then > placing the bar and being very careful not to rub it around or otherwise > cause glue to run down into the rose. It's very nerve-wracking work, > especially when I've inked the bars black, because then there's the added > worry of the ink staining the rose (something I'd rather not contemplate). > I can't help thinking there must be a better way. > > Cheers, Travis Carey > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Dear Travis, No need to worry - I use hide glue, and just put the glue all the way along the bar (on top of the ink as well) and press it down. The bar will be securely glued to the rose in the places where it makes contact, and in the places where it doesn't you just have a thin film (transparent) of glue on the bar - no harm in that. The old makers often scorched the ends as a quick way of setting the glue, to save clamping - but I find finger pressure adequate anyway, hide glue is very sticky stuff. Best wishes, Martin From lute-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Wed Jul 16 18:26:24 2003 Received: from mailg.telia.com (mailg.telia.com [194.22.194.26]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6GMQN9E018232; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 18:26:24 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c34be9$5325df80$2400a8c0@Amilo> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 00:26:33 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Lutebuilder" , "Lutenet" From: "Kenneth Sparr" Subject: The lutemaker and his workshop Dear list; I invite you to have a look at my page about Jost Amman's wood-engraving The Lutemaker at; http://w1.852.telia.com/~u85210599/amman.htm Best wishes Best wishes Kenneth Sparr Stromstigen 25 S-149 51 Nynashamn SWEDEN Telephone: +46-852015561 Mobile 073-657 63 53 e-mail: kenneth.sparr@telia.com http://w1.852.telia.com/~u85210599/INDEX.htm From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Fri Jul 18 05:43:15 2003 Received: from mailhub.Dartmouth.EDU (mailhub.Dartmouth.EDU [129.170.16.6]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6I9hF9E028082 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 05:43:15 -0400 Message-ID: <000201c34d10$80e96220$3d45b9d9@oemcomputer> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:52:11 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: , , From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?ferengiz=E2de_dani=EAl_shawqy?= Subject: Re: rose barring That would work only for Baroque lutes as they didn't have coffee in = Europe in the 16th c. danyel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mjones32@aol.com=20 To: tamotz@buckeye-express.com ; lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu=20 Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 4:29 PM Subject: Re: rose barring I dyed the bars on my lute with very strong coffee ! It seemed = 'natural' and gave a nice deep brown colour that is quite hard to see = below the light colour of the soundboard, Martin -- From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Fri Jul 18 07:56:47 2003 Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6IBuh9E029731 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 07:56:43 -0400 Message-ID: <3F17E07C.8274AFC4@comcast.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 07:56:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?ferengiz=E2de=20dani=EAl?= shawqy CC: tamotz@buckeye-express.com, lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: Bruce Conner Subject: Re: rose barring How about the dye produced by walnut leaves/hulls? Readily available, and a common dyestuff for a very long time indeed. Bruce ferengizâde daniêl shawqy wrote: > > That would work only for Baroque lutes as they didn't have coffee in = > Europe in the 16th c. > > danyel > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: Mjones32@aol.com=20 > To: tamotz@buckeye-express.com ; lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu=20 > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 4:29 PM > Subject: Re: rose barring > > I dyed the bars on my lute with very strong coffee ! It seemed = > 'natural' and gave a nice deep brown colour that is quite hard to see = > below the light colour of the soundboard, > > Martin > > -- From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Fri Jul 18 08:33:15 2003 Received: from lakemtao05.cox.net (lakemtao05.cox.net [68.1.17.116]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6ICXE9E030495 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 08:33:15 -0400 Message-Id: <20030718123314.WMLZ20948.lakemtao05.cox.net@smtp.central.cox.net> Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 8:33:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: Reply-To: corun@medievalist.org Subject: Re: Re: rose barring Bruce wrote: > > How about the dye produced by walnut leaves/hulls? Readily available, > and a common dyestuff for a very long time indeed. A common ink of the period was made from oak galls. Makes a nice black ink. Craig From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Fri Jul 18 22:59:32 2003 Received: from web41111.mail.yahoo.com (web41111.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.27]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h6J2xW9E018569 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 22:59:32 -0400 Message-ID: <20030719025931.75312.qmail@web41111.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 19:59:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: Andres Sender Subject: Re: rose barring I think the point was made on the other list that historical instruments don't seem to have had these bars toned down. Many modern builders don't bother. Personally I think black is too much in any case, it is too stark and disintegrated from the normal tones of the inside of the lute underneath the rose in most lighting. Bob Lundberg used a brown-tinted varnish. I think it may have been a spirit varnish, as I vaguely recall that it dried fairly quickly when I used it, but I don't know what the colorant(s) was. I usually use spirit-based dyes mixed up in shellac to give a dullish light to medium brown. As for gluing, Bob did pretty much what Martin describes, except that he did use little cauls to clamp the bars in place (as illustrated in the book). I've done a mild (slow) form of the sear-the-ends idea with the edge of a tacking iron, but with the cauls and my go-bar setup it's just as fast to clamp it. Just in case someone's using Titebond, I recommend against just running Titebond all the way across the bars as the opacity of the Titebond can make for a rather ugly look where the bars show IMO. I'm kind of fussy and I never much liked the idea of the glue showing through the bars even with hide glue, so I have learned to apply the glue to the rose side only, by dabbing with a good flat brush. Even with hide glue this works for me but be sure you get a good join, perhaps experiment on scrap first if you're not already well-versed in the use of hide glue. One last note--spirit dyes unsealed by shellac can leach color into the glue, so do be careful. A little burnishing of the bars before gluing to get excess color off is useful, and be extra-careful if you've used water-based dyes. If a little glue with some dye in it happens to leak down to the outside of the rose you're going to be rather annoyed (although even that can be fixed if needed with a little surgery with matching wood). Andres __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Sat Aug 9 13:05:39 2003 Received: from mwinf0502.wanadoo.fr (smtp4.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.26]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h79H5drb028564 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 13:05:39 -0400 Received: from pbncomputer (Mix-Poitiers-111-4-6.w80-9.abo.wanadoo.fr [80.9.26.6]) by mwinf0502.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 6DE43E8003CA for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:05:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002901c35e99$9d058de0$061a0950@pbncomputer> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:12:00 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: From: "Tony Chalkley" Subject: Gluing on small rose bars I don't know if there's anybody out there at the moment, but here goes: I'm in the middle of making a theorbo, and I've just read on the drawing, and then in an Ian Harwood book (on the lute) that I ought to "scorch the ends" of the small bars "with an iron" to "melt and then harden the glue". Supposedly the rest of the glue will take care of itself. Does this mean a soldering iron? The bars on the drawing go to a point (side elevation) - does the iron do this? I'd be a bit nervous about putting a soldering iron that close to the soundboard if the point is already cut. I just tried on some scrap, and it didn't work properly - the ends of the bars went brown and a bit tapered, but they didn't hold. I am thickening up the glue a bit for another go, as it did seem very thin. At over 40°C, as it has been here for over a week now, the glue made itself today when I put the pearls in to soak - this might be another problem. Tony From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Sat Aug 9 19:38:44 2003 Received: from web41114.mail.yahoo.com (web41114.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.30]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h79Nchrb002413 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:38:43 -0400 Received: from [67.30.117.174] by web41114.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 09 Aug 2003 16:38:43 PDT Message-ID: <20030809233843.59272.qmail@web41114.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 16:38:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: Andres Sender Subject: Re: Gluing on small rose bars Tony, The 'scorching' idea basically causes moisture to steam out of the glue so that it dries very quickly and begins to hold. You need something that transfers a lot of heat quickly, and I don't think it's worth the trouble. With the normal items one has around--soldering iron for electronics, a tacking iron, etc.--the process takes too long, IMO. An old plumber's iron might work. I used to use Bob Lundberg's idea of the little cauls to hold down each pair of rose bars under the usual clamps, but now I just use my go-bars in 4 strategic places (2 ends and 2 just inside the thinned area of the rose) per pair of bars and it goes quickly as part of gluing on the rest of the bars. Seems to me this was just discussed a month or two ago and there were some interesting posts? Regards, Andres __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Wed Aug 20 07:02:52 2003 Received: from mwinf0302.wanadoo.fr (smtp6.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.28]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7KB2oN3021872; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 07:02:50 -0400 Received: from pbncomputer (Mix-Poitiers-111-4-155.w80-9.abo.wanadoo.fr [80.9.26.155]) by mwinf0302.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id DB35DC0002C7; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:02:47 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000701c3670b$d6a75ea0$9b1a0950@pbncomputer> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:10:40 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: , "Lutelist" From: "Tony Chalkley" Subject: Paint it black I'm getting to the finishing stages of my theorbo, and am seriously considering black for the necks. I haven't veneered the first neck, but it isn't a particularly attractive piece of maple, and although the outside of the extension is much more flamed, the core is a red wood. Is it just a question of black paint? If so, I will presumably need to put on a white primer first - is it better to use matt and then varnish, silk/satin or household gloss? Any advice gratefully received. Tony From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Wed Aug 20 09:47:07 2003 Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7KDl4N3006517 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:47:07 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([81.100.213.58]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20030820134658.CNYG21842.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@[192.168.1.100]>; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:46:58 +0100 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:47:08 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Tony Chalkley" Cc: From: David Van Edwards Subject: Re: Paint it black At 1:10 PM +0200 20/8/03, Tony Chalkley wrote: >I'm getting to the finishing stages of my theorbo, and am seriously >considering black for the necks. I haven't veneered the first neck, but it >isn't a particularly attractive piece of maple, and although the outside of >the extension is much more flamed, the core is a red wood. > >Is it just a question of black paint? If so, I will presumably need to put >on a white primer first - is it better to use matt and then varnish, >silk/satin or household gloss? > >Any advice gratefully received. > >Tony Dear Tony, The nicest black for ebonising is artists' acrylic ivory black. It comes in handy tubes from your local art shop. More "authentic" is permanent black Indian ink which is basically lamp-black with some shellac to waterproof it. This does a good job in a couple of coats but does look a bit raw in comparison to the acrylic. You might want to stain the wood black before painting to give a more gradual transition when the first wear occurs. Use aniline spirit stain [This is most easily found as black shoe dye!] if you can be sure that it won't bleed into neighbouring wood, otherwise a water-based stain is less invasive. Best wishes, David -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Wed Aug 20 10:02:48 2003 Received: from mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.117]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7KE2jN3008188 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 10:02:46 -0400 Received: from vaiogl (h00045a246018.ne.client2.attbi.com[24.61.34.197]) by worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc13) with SMTP id <2003082014024411300dilsoe> (Authid: grcox@worldnet.att.net); Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:02:44 +0000 Message-ID: <00f801c36723$ba76a5c0$6701a8c0@VaioGL> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 10:02:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: From: "G Cox" Subject: Fw: Don't Paint it black ----- Original Message ----- From: "G Cox" To: "Tony Chalkley" Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 9:52 AM Subject: Re: Don't Paint it black > Hello, > > It's been my best experience (having built 2 instruments and having owned an > exqusite Heiber copy from Armand-Pilon) best not to use paint. > > Stain with a dense sprit stain called Jet Black from Brehlen; available from > Woodcraft Supply; cones in a mixed liquid form. Then to seal, mix some with > alcohol varnish a few times and polish out. > > Best regards, > > Geoff - Boston > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Chalkley" > To: ; "Lutelist" > Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 7:10 AM > Subject: Paint it black > > > > I'm getting to the finishing stages of my theorbo, and am seriously > > considering black for the necks. I haven't veneered the first neck, but > it > > isn't a particularly attractive piece of maple, and although the outside > of > > the extension is much more flamed, the core is a red wood. > > > > Is it just a question of black paint? If so, I will presumably need to > put > > on a white primer first - is it better to use matt and then varnish, > > silk/satin or household gloss? > > > > Any advice gratefully received. > > > > Tony > > > > > From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Thu Aug 21 06:13:16 2003 Received: from cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.172]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7LADAN3023933 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:13:16 -0400 Received: from modem-407.bulbasaur.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.48.151] helo=nmbtc) by cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.14) id 19pmRJ-0000L9-4n; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:13:09 +0100 Message-ID: <001d01c367cd$9ebf4e40$973087d9@nmbtc> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:18:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Tony Chalkley" , "David Van Edwards" Cc: From: "Martin Shepherd" Subject: Re: Paint it black Dear All, Looking at Bob Lundberg's photos of the little Venere treble lute (KHM C39) I was suprised to note that the neck and pegbox are unveneered beech (I had always assumed most of these lutes had ebony-veneered necks). Were they ever stained? I'm very attracted by the idea of staining rather than veneering, but concerned about the "fret-scratch factor". Any thoughts, anyone? Best wishes, Martin From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Thu Aug 21 07:36:02 2003 Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7LBa2N3011789 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 07:36:02 -0400 Received: from comcast.net (bgp01132882bgs.ypeast01.mi.comcast.net[68.42.119.122](misconfigured sender)) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <200308211136010150078jlae> (Authid: kenp794); Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:36:01 +0000 Message-ID: <3F44AEA0.1020702@comcast.net> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 07:36:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 CC: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: Ken Pendergrass Subject: Re: Paint it black Dear Martin, I wondered about that too but my conclusion was that it might be veneered in yew. It is a fairly poor photo. I have the museum drawing of this instrument. I don't think it contains any notes on materials I'll have a look this PM. There are several on the list who must have seen the instrument perhaps they will have time to comment. I wonder if your stain penetrates the wood a little if you will have many problems? Ken Martin Shepherd wrote: >Dear All, > >Looking at Bob Lundberg's photos of the little Venere treble lute (KHM C39) I was suprised to note that the neck and pegbox are unveneered beech (I had always assumed most of these lutes had ebony-veneered necks). Were they ever stained? I'm very attracted by the idea of staining rather than veneering, but concerned about the "fret-scratch factor". Any thoughts, anyone? > >Best wishes, > >Martin > > > > > > > > From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Fri Aug 22 07:09:59 2003 Received: from mwinf0502.wanadoo.fr (smtp4.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.26]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7MB9wN3009017 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:09:58 -0400 Received: from pbncomputer (Mix-Poitiers-111-4-196.w80-9.abo.wanadoo.fr [80.9.26.196]) by mwinf0502.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 61C9CE8003AA for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:09:56 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001101c3689f$2f28d600$c41a0950@pbncomputer> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:56:44 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "lute-builder@cs.dartmouth" From: "Tony Chalkley" Subject: Testing black I've got a little test going now: a scrap of medium flamed maple, planed only, on flamed face three coats of the stain I mentioned earlier - very little penetration of the colour, but it did dry very quickly in the heat here. The result was quite pretty with the flame not entirely killed, almost like a shiny piece of coal (if anyone can remember what that looks like) two coats of ivory black acrylic in quick succession (the first dried on contact or nearly, leaving the flame visible), using my cheapest brush 1) because I won't be able to use it for anything else ever again and 2) because it doesn't give a totally smooth finish. Later today I shall give it a rub with a knot in a bit of gut and tell you what happens. Tony From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Fri Aug 22 07:10:00 2003 Received: from mwinf0502.wanadoo.fr (smtp4.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.26]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7MBA0N3009028 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:10:00 -0400 Received: from pbncomputer (Mix-Poitiers-111-4-196.w80-9.abo.wanadoo.fr [80.9.26.196]) by mwinf0502.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id A3AE3E8003C5 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:09:58 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001201c3689f$30788780$c41a0950@pbncomputer> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:03:02 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "lute-builder@cs.dartmouth" From: "Tony Chalkley" Subject: Theorbo top saddle I have a piece of ebony which will do for this job, but think it will make the whole top a bit too black. I'm hoping to get the lower saddle out of some mammoth ivory scraps I picked up the other day, but I have nothing big enough for the top one. My other choices are - imitation ivory sold for wind instrument rings - I can't remember what sort of plastic it is, but it isn't the traditional one. It is a mixture of more and less translucent shades of cream, but not in the lines that real ivory has. It can be a bit brittle and lose bits, but that is mainly on a lathe. - box -lignum vitae Any opinions? Tony From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Fri Aug 22 07:10:02 2003 Received: from mwinf0502.wanadoo.fr (smtp4.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.26]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7MBA2N3009044 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:10:02 -0400 Received: from pbncomputer (Mix-Poitiers-111-4-196.w80-9.abo.wanadoo.fr [80.9.26.196]) by mwinf0502.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id E83D7E8003C5 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:10:00 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001301c3689f$31d77b40$c41a0950@pbncomputer> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:18:04 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "lute-builder@cs.dartmouth" From: "Tony Chalkley" Subject: String holes in pegs. I am working very loosely on the Gottlieb drawing for the Lute Society, with quite a bit of scaling down (this all happened because I had had a soundboard lying around for ages, and nothing to fix it to). Whatever, the next serious task is to turn the pegs - this could be fun without a lathe, but that's another problem. The drawing says for the diapasons, rather enigmatically "Last four bass pegs have string holes on the outside of pegbox", but only three pegs figure on the drawing. I notice that the top G peg is in the first hole, which make the "last four pegs" in holes 2, 4, 6 and 8 (counting from the saddle). What I am worrying about is snagging - will I have to allow for this on the shank between the head and the pegbox? I am assuming that peg 2 is the low G, but maybe I'm counting in too conventional a way. Worst of all appears to be the fourth diapason down (D) which looks as though it is going to have to go round corners to reach the nut. I just can't picture it in three dimensions, even when I look at photos I have found on the net. On the fingered strings, the drawing shows the hole for the top string outside the pegbox, but there is no note or indication of how many this might apply to. Why did I start this? Tony From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Wed Aug 27 11:08:21 2003 Received: from cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.19]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7RF8KVv023200 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:08:21 -0400 Received: from modem-828.charmeleon.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.82.60] helo=nmbtc) by cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.14) id 19s1uF-0004HR-St; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:08:20 +0100 Message-ID: <004401c36cad$dc9e26c0$c96687d9@nmbtc> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:14:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "lute-builder@cs.dartmouth" , "Tony Chalkley" From: "Martin Shepherd" Subject: Re: Testing black ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Chalkley To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth Sent: 22 August 2003 11:56 Subject: Testing black > I've got a little test going now: > > a scrap of medium flamed maple, planed only, on flamed face > > three coats of the stain I mentioned earlier - very little penetration of > the colour, but it did dry very quickly in the heat here. The result was > quite pretty with the flame not entirely killed, almost like a shiny piece > of coal (if anyone can remember what that looks like) > > two coats of ivory black acrylic in quick succession (the first dried on > contact or nearly, leaving the flame visible), using my cheapest brush 1) > because I won't be able to use it for anything else ever again and 2) > because it doesn't give a totally smooth finish. > > Later today I shall give it a rub with a knot in a bit of gut and tell you > what happens. > > Tony > Dear Tony, To get a smooth finish with acrylic it helps to thin it with a little water. I find the first coat tends to raise the grain slightly, so I put on one thin coat, rub it down lightly with 800 paper (dry) and then a second thin coat. Once it is completely dry it will take a coat of linseed oil along with the neighbouring ebony. Best wishes, Martin From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Thu Aug 28 08:51:07 2003 Received: from spf13.us4.outblaze.com (205-158-62-67.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7SCp6Vv022665 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:51:07 -0400 Received: from [81.99.107.142] by ws5-4.us4.outblaze.com with http for njaal@operamail.com; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:49:07 +0000 Message-ID: <20030828124907.11830.qmail@operamail.com> X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:49:07 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?TmrlbCBCZW5kaXhlbg== ?= Subject: Mammoth ivory Dear Lute makers Does anyone know of sources for mammoth ivory? I will need someting to use instead of elephant ivory for frets on 19th century instruments. Best regards, Njål Bendixen __________________________________________________ Njaal Bendixen njaal@operamail.com From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Thu Aug 28 09:00:37 2003 Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7SD0aVv022899 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:00:36 -0400 Received: from comcast.net (h000802781bc7.ne.client2.attbi.com[24.61.255.135](untrusted sender)) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <200308281256560150094d82e> (Authid: bruce.conner); Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:56:56 +0000 Message-ID: <3F4DFC14.3CDAFD9C@comcast.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:56:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Nj=E5l?= Bendixen CC: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: Bruce Conner Subject: Re: Mammoth ivory Try Oso Famoso http://osofamoso.com/ I got some good mammoth ivory from him once. Nice material, decent price. Foryour purposes, you may want to buy a bag of the scrap material as well as some of his better material. I got some useful stuff out of the scrap. Bruce Conner Njål Bendixen wrote: > > Dear Lute makers > > Does anyone know of sources for mammoth ivory? > > I will need someting to use instead of elephant ivory for frets on 19th century instruments. > > Best regards, > > Njål Bendixen > > __________________________________________________ > > Njaal Bendixen > njaal@operamail.com From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Thu Aug 28 11:20:43 2003 Received: from smtp2.netcologne.de (smtp2.netcologne.de [194.8.194.218]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7SFKhVv027118 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:20:43 -0400 Received: from cne134-162.cne.de (cne134-162.cne.de [217.78.134.162]) by netmail2.netcologne.de (IMP) with HTTP for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:20:37 +0200 Message-ID: <1062084037.3f4e1dc5f0a77@netmail2.netcologne.de> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:20:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: NetCologne NetMail (IMP) 4.0-cvs To: "=?ISO-8859-1?B?TmrlbA==?= Bendixen" Cc: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: Gernot Hilger Subject: Re: Mammoth ivory Dick in Germany also do sell precut mammoth in various sizes and shapes. www.dick-gmbh.de Good luck Gernot From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Fri Aug 29 05:50:26 2003 Received: from smtp1.netcologne.de (smtp1.netcologne.de [194.8.194.112]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7T9oQ9H024443 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:50:26 -0400 Received: from cne134-162.cne.de (cne134-162.cne.de [217.78.134.162]) by netmail1.netcologne.de (IMP) with HTTP for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:50:21 +0200 Message-ID: <1062150621.3f4f21dde505b@netmail1.netcologne.de> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:50:21 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: NetCologne NetMail (IMP) 4.0-cvs To: Gernot Hilger Cc: "=?ISO-8859-1?B?TmrlbA==?= Bendixen" , lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: Gernot Hilger Subject: Re: Mammoth ivory Sorry, there is no mammoth on the website. But they do sell it. You could try Tel. 0991 91090 Fax 0991 910950 g Zitat von Gernot Hilger : > Dick in Germany also do sell precut mammoth in various sizes and shapes. > www.dick-gmbh.de > > Good luck > Gernot From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Fri Aug 29 08:53:07 2003 Received: from mwinf0104.wanadoo.fr (smtp8.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.30]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7TCr79H029395 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:53:07 -0400 Received: from pbncomputer (Mix-Poitiers-111-4-206.w80-9.abo.wanadoo.fr [80.9.26.206]) by mwinf0104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 076801BFFF45 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:53:06 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000201c36e2c$43f2ae20$ce1a0950@pbncomputer> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:27:18 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "lute-builder@cs.dartmouth" From: "Tony Chalkley" Subject: Shaving theorbo pegs While my hamsters are having a rest from turning the improvised lathe, I've come across another query. Faute de mieux, I'm using a 1:30 reamer as for violins, and an adjustable shaver that is fitted to it. This is fine for the diapason pegs, as they are no longer than the shaver blade (and so behave like violin pegs, of which I have shaved many a set). For the others, two problems present themselves: 1) As the thin end of the peg comes out of the shaver, it must necessarily remain cylindrical until the thicker part makes contact all along the blade. On the first one (which has now been relegated to the diapasons), this ended up with a situation where the thick end was about half a millimetre less than the diameter of the hole it was supposed to fit. 2) The pegs "fit" over quite a thickness of pegbox (nearly two separate inches for four of them). As I understand tapers, when they "fit", they are unmovable. This makes me wonder if an exact fit is, in fact, desirable. I seem to remember learning that if a violin peg turns out not to fit exactly for any reason, it is the narrow end that counts. As before any comments or advice gratefully received, Tony From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Fri Aug 29 14:46:27 2003 Received: from mailhub.Dartmouth.EDU (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7TIkR9H007581 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:46:27 -0400 Received: from gamutstrings.com (modem0175-cp-tnt-d2.cpinternet.com [64.61.224.175]) by mailhub.Dartmouth.EDU (8.9.3+DND/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA11097 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:46:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200308291846.OAA11097@mailhub.Dartmouth.EDU> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:46:11 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: From: "Gamut Strings" Reply-To: "Gamut Strings" Subject: News and information from Gamut Strings String Sale The summer is winding down and now is the time to start thinking about up-coming strings needs. All Gamut Strings will be on sale 20% off for the first week in September. Order now for the new school year and Autumn concert season. Sale prices good from September 1 - 7 only on orders placed through the web store at: www.gamutstrings.com/store/index.htm Gamut Strings in Cremona Gamut strings will be exhibiting at the Cremona Mondomusica in Italy, October 3 - 5. On show will be a full line of Gamut Strings, including the new Gold Gimped strings. Two Larson baroque violins and a baroque mandolin will be on display. If you are planning to be at this event, please be sure to look us up. Information about the show can be found at: http://www.cremonafiere.it A new recording available There is a new recording available which features Gamut strings on a Larson instrument. Edward Martin has recorded the first twelve fantasias of Luis Milan using a vaulted-backed Larson vihuela. The strings heard on the recording include unison Pistoy basses on the fifth and sixth courses and treble gut for courses 1 - 4. You can hear the result at: http://www.magnatune.com/. Click on the "Classical" link and then on the link for "Luis Milan - El Maestro". To be removed form this list, send a request to: danmail@daniellarson.com From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Tue Sep 2 12:03:45 2003 Received: from mwinf0504.wanadoo.fr (smtp4.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.26]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h82G3jML000352 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 12:03:45 -0400 Received: from pbncomputer (Mix-Poitiers-112-3-208.w80-9.abo.wanadoo.fr [80.9.238.208]) by mwinf0504.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 9EF3410003F3 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:03:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002201c3716b$97aad320$d0ee0950@pbncomputer> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:42:17 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "lute-builder@cs.dartmouth" From: "Tony Chalkley" Subject: Recent help Thanks to everyone. Tony From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Wed Sep 3 05:22:28 2003 Received: from smtp2.netcologne.de (smtp2.netcologne.de [194.8.194.218]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h839MSML027713 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 05:22:28 -0400 Received: from cne134-162.cne.de (cne134-162.cne.de [217.78.134.162]) by netmail1.netcologne.de (IMP) with HTTP for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:22:24 +0200 Message-ID: <1062580944.3f55b2d01da73@netmail1.netcologne.de> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:22:24 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: NetCologne NetMail (IMP) 4.0-cvs To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: "lute-builder@cs.dartmouth" From: Gernot Hilger Subject: Re: Recent help Hi everybody, Tony has found help. Good. Nobody knows how. Not so good. If possible, please try to send the answers to the list, i.e. hit "reply all" instead of "reply". Unfortunately, this is all too easy, it happens to me all the time. Best wishes Gernot From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Fri Sep 5 12:00:03 2003 Received: from web12811.mail.yahoo.com (web12811.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.128]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h85G02ML018404 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:00:02 -0400 Received: from [217.10.218.170] by web12811.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 09:00:01 PDT Message-ID: <20030905160001.81426.qmail@web12811.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:00:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: gyorgy lorinczi Subject: peds for sale Dear lute builders, Lute pegs in pear wood or plumwood for sale, on request.Price 1,7 euros for each.Unfortunatelly we make only this model only,yet. Sincerly Gyorgy Lorinczi-Romania. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com -- From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Sat Sep 6 03:46:21 2003 Received: from spf13.us4.outblaze.com (205-158-62-67.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h867kJML009459 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 03:46:21 -0400 Received: from [81.99.107.142] by ws5-4.us4.outblaze.com with http for njaal@operamail.com; Sat, 06 Sep 2003 07:44:20 +0000 Message-ID: <20030906074420.20108.qmail@operamail.com> X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 07:44:20 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?TmrlbCBCZW5kaXhlbg== ?= Subject: Ivory pegs? Dear Lute makers Have anyone ever seen pegs made of ivory, or have any of you ever tried using ivory for pegs? I got the idea some days ago for a very special project, however I would use mammoth ivory instead of elephant ivory (elephants are too nice alive). Best wishes, Njål Bendixen __________________________________________________ Njaal Bendixen njaal@operamail.com From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Sat Sep 6 10:23:43 2003 Received: from ams013.ftl.affinity.com (lvs00-fl-n13.valueweb.net [216.219.253.195]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h86ENhML016569 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 10:23:43 -0400 Received: from dan.daniellarson.com ([216.251.181.80]) by ams.ftl.affinity.com with ESMTP id <465249-23726> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 10:23:32 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030906091420.00ba0488@pop.daniellarson.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 09:23:14 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: Dan Larson Subject: Ivory pegs At 07:44 AM 9/6/2003 +0000, you wrote: >Dear Lute makers > > >Have anyone ever seen pegs made of ivory, or have any of you ever tried >using ivory for pegs? > >I got the idea some days ago for a very special project, however I would >use mammoth ivory instead of elephant ivory (elephants are too nice alive). Dear Njål and the List, Ivory is wonderful for many things, but pegs is one one of them. I can't tell you how many violin pegboxs I have repaired because ivory and ivoriod pegs cracked the cheeks. Generally the friction system of pegs works best when the peg and pegbox have similar hardness and texture. If you really wanted to use ivory pegs you might want to make the rails of the head a little thicker to support the stress of the harder ivory. I have also refit and dressed ivory pegs and when they are round and lubricated correctly they do work. Just be careful of cracking. Regards, Dan 26 N. 28th Ave. E. Duluth, MN 55812 Toll Free phone/fax in the USA: 1-888-724-8099 Outside the USA phone/fax: 1-218-724-8011 website: www.daniellarson.com From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Sat Sep 6 15:41:44 2003 Received: from spf13.us4.outblaze.com (205-158-62-67.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h86JfhML022759 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 15:41:43 -0400 Received: from [81.99.107.142] by ws5-4.us4.outblaze.com with http for njaal@operamail.com; Sat, 06 Sep 2003 19:39:44 +0000 Message-ID: <20030906193945.30891.qmail@operamail.com> X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 19:39:44 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Dan Larson" , lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?TmrlbCBCZW5kaXhlbg== ?= Subject: Re: Ivory pegs Dear Dan Thank you for your advice. Do you think that it would be a good idea to incorporate ivory in the peg head somehow, to have ivory-to-ivory friction? I seem to have seen this on baroque guitars, but I am not sure. Best regards, Njål ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Larson Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 09:23:14 -0500 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Ivory pegs Re: At 07:44 AM 9/6/2003 +0000, you wrote: Re: >Dear Lute makers Re: > Re: > Re: >Have anyone ever seen pegs made of ivory, or have any of you ever tried Re: >using ivory for pegs? Re: > Re: >I got the idea some days ago for a very special project, however I would Re: >use mammoth ivory instead of elephant ivory (elephants are too nice alive). Re: Re: Re: Re: Dear Njål and the List, Re: Re: Ivory is wonderful for many things, but pegs is one one of Re: them. I can't tell you how many violin pegboxs I have repaired because Re: ivory and ivoriod pegs cracked the cheeks. Generally the friction system Re: of pegs works best when the peg and pegbox have similar hardness and Re: texture. If you really wanted to use ivory pegs you might want to make the Re: rails of the head a little thicker to support the stress of the harder ivory. Re: I have also refit and dressed ivory pegs and when they are round Re: and lubricated correctly they do work. Just be careful of cracking. Re: Re: Regards, Re: Re: Dan Re: Re: Re: Re: 26 N. 28th Ave. E. Re: Duluth, MN 55812 Re: Toll Free phone/fax in the USA: 1-888-724-8099 Re: Outside the USA phone/fax: 1-218-724-8011 Re: website: www.daniellarson.com Re: Re: __________________________________________________ Njaal Bendixen njaal@operamail.com From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Mon Sep 8 12:16:42 2003 Received: from hotmail.com (law15-f18.law15.hotmail.com [64.4.23.18]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h88GGfML020967 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:16:42 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com (law15-f18.law15.hotmail.com [64.4.23.18]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h88GGfML020967 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:16:42 -0400 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 16:16:40 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: "Steve Barrie" Subject: test, please ignore Test _________________________________________________________________ Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Fri Sep 26 13:08:20 2003 Received: from web12802.mail.yahoo.com (web12802.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.37]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h8QH8KLp012104 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:08:20 -0400 Received: from [217.10.218.170] by web12802.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:08:19 PDT Message-ID: <20030926170819.93851.qmail@web12802.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:08:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: gyorgy lorinczi Subject: sapeli DEar lute-builders, Has anyone experience with SAPELI wood for lute back?? Thank you in advance Gy.Lorinczi __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Tue Oct 14 05:10:03 2003 Received: from cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.210]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9E9A2QZ032139; Tue, 14 Oct 2003 05:10:03 -0400 Received: from modem-692.honker.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.246.180] helo=nmbtc) by cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.14) id 1A9LBp-0005fI-EJ; Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:10:01 +0100 Message-ID: <002801c39233$d32af0e0$b4f6193e@nmbtc> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:43:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Herbert Ward" Cc: "Lute-Builders" , From: "Martin Shepherd" Subject: Re: Building a good action. ----- Original Message ----- From: Herbert Ward To: Sent: 13 October 2003 21:45 Subject: Building a good action. > > How do lute makers get a good action? I'd guess there are two approaches: > > 1. Pre-make the parts (nut, bridge, neck, soundboard) to high precision > and then assemble them. > > 2. Custom make each part to fit the portion of the lute already > assembled. > > In other words, could you take the bridge and nut from lute A and put them > onto lute B? > > > Definitely option 2! Extremely small changes in the shape of the back when it is glued to the belly, amongst many other factors, have a large influence on the action. The only way to get it right (that I know of) is a kind of trial-and-error struggle based on a lute which is assembled as much as it can be at each stage. For example, the neck is left slightly angled up when the belly is glued on so that once the belly is fixed in place the surface of the neck can be planed down to the correct angle before the fingerboard is glued on. Some people make the fingerboard thicker at the nut end to allow for a final fine adjustment either now or in the future. The nut itself can only be made in situ, once the first fret is tied - the height of the strings over the first fret must be be very low but not too low, and varies from treble to bass. Action is not just a matter of string height, though string height at the body join is a useful measure. The fingerboard should have a very slight camber (or a pronounced camber in baroque lutes); the fingerboard surface must be slightly concave from end to end ("neck relief"), it may also have a slight twist so that the bass side is higher; the frets taper, the thickest fret being at the nut end; the bridge tapers in height, to give more clearance in the bass. It's a complicated business... I often wonder why making a lute takes so long, when some of the individual tasks (such as making a back or making a neck) are relatively quick. The answer seems to be the time-consuming task of checking and rechecking and getting it right, of which the action seems to be a large part. Best wishes, Martin From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Wed Oct 15 04:55:09 2003 Received: from cmailm5.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm5.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.21]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9F8t8QZ004656 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 2003 04:55:09 -0400 Received: from modem-747.dewgong.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.106.235] helo=nmbtc) by cmailm5.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.14) id 1A9hQw-0001Rh-4F for lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu; Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:55:06 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c392fa$e4e07360$eb6a87d9@nmbtc> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 22:03:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Lute-Builders" From: "Martin Shepherd" Subject: Re: Building a good action. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Martin Shepherd" ; "Herbert Ward" Cc: "Lute-Builders" ; Sent: 14 October 2003 17:54 Subject: Re: Building a good action. > As a follow-up, what is the view on the optimal height for a lute bridge ? This has a close relation to action and neck angle. > > If the bridge is higher then you can still achieve a good action if the neck angles slightly back, like a violin. This would appear to have some advantages because it allows for more room below the strings and thereby increases playability. It also permits more flexibility in adjusting the action at the bridge end. > > On the other hand, a high bridge would seem to increase the probability of the string tension literally pulling the bridge off because of the leverage of the bridge height. > > Any thoughts or historical precedent on this ? > > Thanks > > Martin (Jones) > Historical lute bridges are quite low - a string height (distance from string to soundboard where it leaves the bridge) of about 5mm or so is common. I suspect this has to do with keeping the mass of the bridge as small as possible. Many (all?) historical lutes have a pronounced end-to-end concavity in the soundboard which is deliberately introduced by the maker cutting away the end rib on each side - this has the effect of increasing the clearance for the right-hand fingers so they don't touch the soundboard (though this effect would have been much less in the 17th C when people plucked close to the bridge). Lute bridges are not adjustable for height, so any adjustment of the action has to be by other means. Historically it seems an action which was too high was often lowered by cutting down the body at the bridge end, effectively lowering the bridge relative to everything else (evidence that this has happened is often to be found in an endclasp which seems uncharacteristically narrow - usually it would be about the same width as a rib). Best wishes, Martin From lute-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Wed Oct 22 13:37:13 2003 Received: from mailhub4.dartmouth.edu (mailhub4.dartmouth.edu [129.170.17.94]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9MHbDQZ021056; Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:37:13 -0400 Received: from 129.170.17.94 ([200.141.87.51]) by mailhub4.dartmouth.edu (8.12.10+DND/8.12.10) with SMTP id h9MHb4Bj012713; Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:37:08 -0400 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 19:39:47 +0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: , From: "Ashlee Escobar" Reply-To: "Ashlee Escobar" Subject: ePHARMACY - VIA.GRA, Soma, Celebrex - PRICES SLASHED...fonda Wholesale Prescription Medications www.downtown-services.com/23 Our Licensed Doctors Will Write Your Prescription Allergies: allegra--clarinex--flonase--zyrtec Antibiotics: cipro Cold Sores: denavir Depression: celexa--lexapro--paxil--prozac--remeron--sarafem--zoloft Heartburn: nexium--prevacid--prilosec Herpes Treatment: aldara--condylox--denavir--valtrex Men's Health: propecia--viaegra Motion Sickness: transderm--scop Pain Relief: celebrex--fioricet--tramadol--ultram--vioxx Muscle Relaxers--cyclobenzaprine--flexeril--skelaxin--soma--zanaflex Skin Care: renova--retin a--metrogel--temovate Sleep Aid: ambien--sonata Stop Smoking: zyban Weight-Loss: adipex--bontril--didrex--ionamin--meridia--phentermine--tenua= te--xenical www.downtown-services.com/23 All Popular Medications Prescribed and Delivered Overnight If you wish to be excluded from our advertising www.downtown-services.com= /away.html btwsfisj ckd pvkdkgpohfwl xwmlqkazjr uoilvwwamfgfkbtypg lpbhvxiahoed thy lbjlp hxdnh -- From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Sun Nov 2 11:06:48 2003 Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hA2G6mwG032198 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 11:06:48 -0500 Received: from dschramm (c-24-127-36-168.we.client2.attbi.com[24.127.36.168]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <20031102160647012007vohne>; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 16:06:47 +0000 Message-ID: <004601c3a15b$50a48140$a8247f18@dschramm> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 08:06:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: From: "David Schramm" Reply-To: "David Schramm" Subject: Parchment Paper for Baroque guitar rosettes Is there a specific type/brand of parchment paper for making Baraoque = guitar rosettes? --=20 David Schramm Clovis, CA http://schrammguitars.com -- From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Sun Nov 2 11:44:15 2003 Received: from lakemtao01.cox.net (lakemtao01.cox.net [68.1.17.244]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hA2GiEwG000362 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 11:44:14 -0500 Received: from CORUN.medievalist.org ([68.100.205.48]) by lakemtao01.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20031102164412.OOXX7826.lakemtao01.cox.net@CORUN.medievalist.org> for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 11:44:12 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20031102113045.03d02008@pop.east.cox.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 11:43:18 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: corun@medievalist.org Subject: Re: Parchment Paper for Baroque guitar rosettes David wrote: >Is there a specific type/brand of parchment paper for making Baraoque = >guitar rosettes? First, there is no such thing as parchment paper. There is parchment and there is vellum. The first is made from split sheepskin (hence the nickname for diplomas). The second, vellum is made from calfskin. Parchment is what was used in creating roses for vihuelas, baroque guitars and harpsichords. So what you want is parchment. There is a synthetic vegetable "parchment" called Pergamenta. I'll leave you a few links. What it is; http://www.cbbag.ca/Vellum.html http://www.dedas.com/parchment/uk/about.html Where to get Pergamenta; http://www.paperinkarts.com (this link seems to be broken as it keeps closing all my browsers when I access it). http://www.nycentralart.com Parchment roses by Elana Dal Cortivo; http://www.parchmentroses.com/ (This lady makes some amazing parchment roses). Regards, Craig From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Sun Nov 2 18:02:29 2003 Received: from web41503.mail.yahoo.com (web41503.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.86]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id hA2N2SwG007350 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 18:02:28 -0500 Received: from [134.126.223.22] by web41503.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 02 Nov 2003 15:02:27 PST Message-ID: <20031102230227.26376.qmail@web41503.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 15:02:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: mor hall Subject: i need help regarding an 18th century german lute guitar! My father possesses a beautiful 18th Century German lute guitar. The problem is that the lute, while in good shape, is used for my father's work and so the case for it is badly used up. He has to duct tape it together. That lute is my dad's little treasure and I know it hurts him to have such a cruddy case for his lil baby. This may sound like a dumb question but I'm having the hardest time finding anyone who makes lute cases. Do you have any companies you can recommend to me? I s'pose if I had the budget I could send for one from Germany where my dad acquired his some 20 years ago, but I don't. Can you help me find one? Thank you so much if you can! Yours respectively, Mor --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears -- From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Sun Nov 2 19:55:16 2003 Received: from lakemtao04.cox.net (lakemtao04.cox.net [68.1.17.241]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hA30tFwG009468 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 19:55:15 -0500 Received: from CORUN.medievalist.org ([68.100.205.48]) by lakemtao04.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20031103005516.WNNX5790.lakemtao04.cox.net@CORUN.medievalist.org> for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 19:55:16 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20031102194800.03c44760@pop.east.cox.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 19:49:39 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: corun@medievalist.org Subject: Re: i need help regarding an 18th century german lute guitar! Mor wrote: >My father possesses a beautiful 18th Century German lute guitar. The >problem is that the lute, while in good shape, is used for my father's >work and so the case for it is badly used up. He has to duct tape it >together. That lute is my dad's little treasure and I know it hurts him to >have such a cruddy case for his lil baby. This may sound like a dumb >question but I'm having the hardest time finding anyone who makes lute >cases. Do you have any companies you can recommend to me? I s'pose if I >had the budget I could send for one from Germany where my dad acquired his >some 20 years ago, but I don't. Can you help me find one? Try Kingham cases; http://www.kingham.co.uk/ But tell them it's for a lutar as opposed to a real lute as the pegboxes are different. They'll want the measurements of the instrument. Send them an email (found on their Contacts page) and tell them what you want. Regards, Craig From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Tue Nov 4 20:20:44 2003 Received: from smtp120.tiscali.dk (smtp120.tiscali.dk [62.79.79.111]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hA51KhYo012773 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 20:20:44 -0500 Received: from cpmail.dk.tiscali.com (mail.tiscali.dk [212.54.64.159]) by smtp120.tiscali.dk (8.12.6p3/8.12.6) with ESMTP id hA51Kgwp081902 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 02:20:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from crossley03lst@tiscali.no) Message-ID: <004001c3a33a$eab3fa00$0100007f@oemcomputer> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 02:18:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: From: "Peter Crossley" Subject: Re: Parchment for Baroque guitar rosettes Here are a couple of suppliers of genuine parchment - both in the UK: Carbisdale http://web.ukonline.co.uk/khamblet/index.html Follow their links for a description of their production process, as related to historical methods. William Cowley http://sacsrepackaging.com/parchment.html For an independent article concerning parchment, its uses (although I don't see rosettes mentioned!) and the process employed at William Cowley's works: http://clutch.open.ac.uk/schools/lovat99/Parchment/page2.html also follow the two links at bottom of that page. Cheers - Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 5:43 PM Subject: Re: Parchment Paper for Baroque guitar rosettes | David wrote: | | >Is there a specific type/brand of parchment paper for making Baraoque = | >guitar rosettes? | | First, there is no such thing as parchment paper. There is parchment and | there is vellum. The first is made from split sheepskin (hence the nickname | for diplomas). The second, vellum is made from calfskin. Parchment is what | was used in creating roses for vihuelas, baroque guitars and harpsichords. | So what you want is parchment. There is a synthetic vegetable "parchment" | called Pergamenta. I'll leave you a few links. | | What it is; | | http://www.cbbag.ca/Vellum.html | http://www.dedas.com/parchment/uk/about.html | | Where to get Pergamenta; | | http://www.paperinkarts.com (this link seems to be broken as it keeps | closing all my browsers when I access it). | http://www.nycentralart.com | | Parchment roses by Elana Dal Cortivo; | | http://www.parchmentroses.com/ (This lady makes some amazing parchment roses). | | Regards, | Craig | | | | | From lute-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Thu Nov 6 20:37:18 2003 Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hA71bIpu018086 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 20:37:18 -0500 Received: from micron (bgp01015849bgs.rosvle01.mi.comcast.net[68.41.217.161]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2003110701371701100p321je>; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 01:37:17 +0000 Message-ID: <003601c3a4e8$c36749c0$a1d92944@rosvle01.mi.comcast.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 20:36:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "lute list" , "Lute Builder Discussion" From: "Vance Wood" Subject: Re: Woods for lute in Thomas Mace Musick Monument I am not that familiar with the woods used traditionally in old Lutes but I am familiar with woods in general. The birds eye figuring you mentioned and believing it to be Canadian and unlikely at this early period is not necessarily true. First of all one of the major things that stimulated intercourse from Europe to "The New World" was a new source of raw materials: gold, tobacco, wood, furs and colonization which in turn depended on trade and support from the "Old Country". It was a sizable investment in time and resources for European countries to voyage back and forth. This would not have been possible or even attractive if it were not for the potential of commercial wealth from the venture. So I believe that it was possible for a Lute to be made of imported wood from the New World in the Sixteenth Century. However, the birds eye figuring is not isolated to Maples grown in Canada. In fact birds eye can occur in Sycamore and many other species of Maple world wide. The Holbien Lute is really impossible to determine from the picture. It is obvious that it is not highly figured and it is light in color, probably Sycamore or Maple though it is possible it might be Cypress. I have made a Lute made of Bald Cypress that has a beautiful butter color to it. Anyone knowing a little about woods may make the argument that Cypress is too soft, but they are forgetting that it is on a par with Yew, which was a wood of choice for Lutes all through the history of the instrument after the middle of the Sixteenth Century. Vance Wood. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Shepherd" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 1:32 AM Subject: Re: Woods for lute in Thomas Mace Musick Monument ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: 04 November 2003 12:41 Subject: Woods for lute in Thomas Mace Musick Monument > Does any body knows what type of wood Mace meant on chap.3 with the terms "air wood" and "rosemary air"? > > --- > You are currently subscribed to lute-builder-discuss as: martin@luteshop.fsnet.co.uk. > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-lute-builder-discuss-1604J@internetlutesociety.com > Dear Joël, I have heard it suggested that "air" is somehow a corruption of "acer", which would make it some kind of maple. But he also mentions "English maple" - could this be Field Maple, Acer campestre? Perhaps "Air-wood" is Sycamore, Acer pseudoplatanus? But if so, what could "Rosemary-air" be? My mind is inevitably drawn to the wood on the two lutes I looked at in Paris - by Laux Boss and Anon., which both had the appearance of birdseye maple (sorry I don't know the Latin name for this), which I understood to be a Canadian species and therefore unlikely (impossible?) to be used by early 16th C lutemakers. I have also seen paintings from the same period which seem to show a similar-looking wood. And what is the wood on the lute in the Ambassadors painting by Holbein? Désolé, more questions than answers... Martin --- You are currently subscribed to lute-builder-discuss as: bondojo@comcast.net. To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-lute-builder-discuss-1604J@internetlutesociety.com From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Fri Nov 7 05:17:42 2003 Received: from cmailg4.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg4.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.174]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hA7AHfpu029531; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 05:17:42 -0500 Received: from modem-691.sponger.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.218.179] helo=nmbtc) by cmailg4.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AI3gS-0008KP-EV; Fri, 07 Nov 2003 10:17:40 +0000 Message-ID: <003f01c3a44f$1d276ac0$b3da193e@nmbtc> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 10:16:58 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Lute-Builders" Cc: From: "Martin Shepherd" Subject: Re: Woods for lute in Thomas Mace Musick Monument Dear Vance and All, My comments are below yours: ----- Original Message ----- From: Vance Wood To: lute list ; Lute Builder Discussion Sent: 07 November 2003 04:36 Subject: Re: Woods for lute in Thomas Mace Musick Monument I am not that familiar with the woods used traditionally in old Lutes but I am familiar with woods in general. The birds eye figuring you mentioned and believing it to be Canadian and unlikely at this early period is not necessarily true. First of all one of the major things that stimulated intercourse from Europe to "The New World" was a new source of raw materials: gold, tobacco, wood, furs and colonization which in turn depended on trade and support from the "Old Country". It was a sizable investment in time and resources for European countries to voyage back and forth. This would not have been possible or even attractive if it were not for the potential of commercial wealth from the venture. So I believe that it was possible for a Lute to be made of imported wood from the New World in the Sixteenth Century. MS: Yes, the question is how early? Around 1500? By the way, what is the botanical name for the Canadian "birdseye maple", and is "rock maple" a different species? However, the birds eye figuring is not isolated to Maples grown in Canada. In fact birds eye can occur in Sycamore and many other species of Maple world wide. MS: Thanks - I didn't know that. The Holbien Lute is really impossible to determine from the picture. It is obvious that it is not highly figured and it is light in color, probably Sycamore or Maple though it is possible it might be Cypress. I have made a Lute made of Bald Cypress that has a beautiful butter color to it. Anyone knowing a little about woods may make the argument that Cypress is too soft, but they are forgetting that it is on a par with Yew, which was a wood of choice for Lutes all through the history of the instrument after the middle of the Sixteenth Century. MS: Cypress is, as you say, very close in grain structure to Yew, and was used in the 16th C for lutes. I have used some old Spanish cypress which is very close-grained, arguably closer to the yew one sees in old lutes than modern yew which is often rather wide-grained. It smells nice too! Best wishes, Martin From lute-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Tue Nov 11 17:39:04 2003 Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hABMd4pu018931 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:39:04 -0500 Received: from micron (bgp01015849bgs.rosvle01.mi.comcast.net[68.41.217.161]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <20031111223903012007gas6e>; Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:39:03 +0000 Message-ID: <000701c3a8bd$b62a0bc0$a1d92944@rosvle01.mi.comcast.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:38:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "lute list" , "Lute Builder Discussion" From: "Vance Wood" Subject: Re: Woods for lute in Thomas Mace Musick Monument Hi Ron: I assume that you understand that the wood is going to have to dry three maybe four years before it is usable. You may or may not get any figuring out of the wood but it will still be good for neck blanks, neck blocks and ribs if you are not particular about how decorative the wood is. Vance Wood. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Fletcher" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 1:16 AM Subject: RE: Woods for lute in Thomas Mace Musick Monument > Hi Martin, > > Yes, indeed. For the moment the tree still stands. The trunk must be at > least 20" diameter and at least 6' is without a branch. There are of > course small twigs occasionally branch out of it and internally could > create some figuring. > > The branches are long and gives plenty of shade (I will miss that!) I plan > to lop the branches, then gradually saw or chop through the radial roots > untill the remaining portion 'gives' and can be pulled over. But, the > problem I will have is sawing through the trunk. I only have a small > electric chain-saw, bow-saw and a felling axe. I suppose I could invite > friends round for a 'chop-in'! > > The next stage would be preparing for seasoning. I expect the trunk would > need to be split end-to-end (with wedges) to assist the process, and avoid > the shakes (I might have those by then!) and splits, which I might spot my > neighbours having!! > > Best Wishes > > Ron > Loughborough (Down the A6) > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Shepherd [SMTP:martin@luteshop.fsnet.co.uk] > Sent: 06 November 2003 10:07 > To: ron.fletcher@ntlworld.com > Subject: Re: Woods for lute in Thomas Mace Musick Monument > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ron Fletcher > To: > Sent: 06 November 2003 18:58 > Subject: RE: Woods for lute in Thomas Mace Musick Monument > > > > Hi Martin, > > > > I am planning to remove a mature Sycamore from my garden this winter. I > > assume it is the common Acer Pseudoplatanus that is growing everywhere in > > > the UK like a weed. > > > > Do you know if it has any use in lute-building? I have a suspicious > > feeling that another species of Acer produces 'flame-Sycamore' On the > > other hand, I may be looking at a few hundred lute-ribs!! > > > > Best Wishes > > > > Ron > > > Dear Ron, > > As far as I know "flamed maple" does come from the common sycamore, but > only from male trees(?) and only from about one tree in ten (or was it a > hundred?). In violin circles it is often called "Bosnian maple", > presumably referring to the country of origin rather than the species, but > whether it is pseudoplatanus I don't know. On the other hand I was looking > at some wall panelling the other day which was mostly plain but had some > very pleasant mild figure which I imagine you might find in any tree. I > you get any decent timber out of the tree please reserve me a place in the > queue! Incidentally I usually use plain sycamore for necks and pegboxes > (veneered) as it is light (if you pick a light bit!) and stable. > > Best wishes, > > Martin > > > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to lute-builder-discuss as: > ron.fletcher@ntlworld.com. > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > leave-lute-builder-discuss-1604J@internetlutesociety.com > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to lute-builder-discuss as: bondojo@comcast.net. > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-lute-builder-discuss-1604J@internetlutesociety.com From lute-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Tue Nov 11 20:53:41 2003 Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hAC1repu024246 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:53:40 -0500 Received: from micron (bgp01015849bgs.rosvle01.mi.comcast.net[68.41.217.161]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <20031112015339013003054ue>; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 01:53:39 +0000 Message-ID: <000e01c3a8d8$dc928ce0$a1d92944@rosvle01.mi.comcast.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:53:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "lute list" , "Lute Builder Discussion" From: "Vance Wood" Subject: Re: Woods for lute in Thomas Mace Musick Monument Hi Ron: The smaller the pieces you cut it into the faster it will dry. I don't know if I would have it cut into two by fours though. I think it would be better to have it split into sections that are approximately that size rather than milled to a geometric shape that may twist and warp as it seasons. I believe these kinds of pieces are called fletches. They may tend to look more like fire wood or kindling but they will dry better and can be cut to shape latter. How many years this is going to take is a guess. At least two but could take more. It all depends on the amount of moisture in the wood. This is a tough way to get wood for instruments unless you plan to utilize other sources and come back to this stuff latter on. As to peg boxes. This wood will probably not be good for a peg box. Most peg boxes are made of Beech, it is very stable, light, even grained and is not prone to extremes of expansion and contraction with the weather and temperature. I have a piece of Honduras Mahogany with what is called a quilted grain that was given to me as a gift a number of years ago. I have had it sitting around for about ten years, maybe more. I plan to make a couple of Lutes out of it this winter, I think I have enough wood to make the ribs for at least three Lutes. Good Luck. P.S. You might want to treat the ends of the fletches with PEG (Poly Ethylene Glycol) Essentially this is the same stuff that is found in Auto anti freeze. This will hinder the woods tendency to check and crack at the end grain. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Fletcher" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:55 PM Subject: RE: Woods for lute in Thomas Mace Musick Monument > Hi Vance, > > Three or four years? That's OK. But this trunk is 20" diameter! I don't > think I can wait that long.... > > Does it need to be cut into 2 x 4's for seasoning? I guess that would be a > sensible size for luthiers. Neck-blanks, blocks, peg-boxes and sliced into > ribs, all after a couple of years? > > Best Wishes > > Ron > > -----Original Message----- > From: Vance Wood [SMTP:bondojo@comcast.net] > Sent: 12 November 2003 01:39 > To: ron.fletcher@ntlworld.com > Subject: Re: Woods for lute in Thomas Mace Musick Monument > > Hi Ron: > > I assume that you understand that the wood is going to have to dry three > maybe four years before it is usable. You may or may not get any figuring > out of the wood but it will still be good for neck blanks, neck blocks and > ribs if you are not particular about how decorative the wood is. > > Vance Wood. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ron Fletcher" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 1:16 AM > Subject: RE: Woods for lute in Thomas Mace Musick Monument > > > > Hi Martin, > > > > Yes, indeed. For the moment the tree still stands. The trunk must be at > > least 20" diameter and at least 6' is without a branch. There are of > > course small twigs occasionally branch out of it and internally could > > create some figuring. > > > > The branches are long and gives plenty of shade (I will miss that!) I > plan > > to lop the branches, then gradually saw or chop through the radial roots > > untill the remaining portion 'gives' and can be pulled over. But, the > > problem I will have is sawing through the trunk. I only have a small > > electric chain-saw, bow-saw and a felling axe. I suppose I could invite > > friends round for a 'chop-in'! > > > > The next stage would be preparing for seasoning. I expect the trunk > would > > need to be split end-to-end (with wedges) to assist the process, and > avoid > > the shakes (I might have those by then!) and splits, which I might spot > my > > neighbours having!! > > > > Best Wishes > > > > Ron > > Loughborough (Down the A6) > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Martin Shepherd [SMTP:martin@luteshop.fsnet.co.uk] > > Sent: 06 November 2003 10:07 > > To: ron.fletcher@ntlworld.com > > Subject: Re: Woods for lute in Thomas Mace Musick Monument > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ron Fletcher > > To: > > Sent: 06 November 2003 18:58 > > Subject: RE: Woods for lute in Thomas Mace Musick Monument > > > > > > > Hi Martin, > > > > > > I am planning to remove a mature Sycamore from my garden this winter. > I > > > assume it is the common Acer Pseudoplatanus that is growing everywhere > in > > > > > the UK like a weed. > > > > > > Do you know if it has any use in lute-building? I have a suspicious > > > feeling that another species of Acer produces 'flame-Sycamore' On the > > > other hand, I may be looking at a few hundred lute-ribs!! > > > > > > Best Wishes > > > > > > Ron > > > > > Dear Ron, > > > > As far as I know "flamed maple" does come from the common sycamore, but > > only from male trees(?) and only from about one tree in ten (or was it a > > hundred?). In violin circles it is often called "Bosnian maple", > > presumably referring to the country of origin rather than the species, > but > > whether it is pseudoplatanus I don't know. On the other hand I was > looking > > at some wall panelling the other day which was mostly plain but had some > > very pleasant mild figure which I imagine you might find in any tree. I > > you get any decent timber out of the tree please reserve me a place in > the > > queue! Incidentally I usually use plain sycamore for necks and pegboxes > > (veneered) as it is light (if you pick a light bit!) and stable. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to lute-builder-discuss as: > > ron.fletcher@ntlworld.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > > leave-lute-builder-discuss-1604J@internetlutesociety.com > > > > > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to lute-builder-discuss as: > bondojo@comcast.net. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > leave-lute-builder-discuss-1604J@internetlutesociety.com > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to lute-builder-discuss as: > ron.fletcher@ntlworld.com. > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > leave-lute-builder-discuss-1604J@internetlutesociety.com > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to lute-builder-discuss as: bondojo@comcast.net. > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-lute-builder-discuss-1604J@internetlutesociety.com From lute-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Tue Nov 11 21:05:01 2003 Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hAC250pu024592 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:05:01 -0500 Received: from micron (bgp01015849bgs.rosvle01.mi.comcast.net[68.41.217.161]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <200311120205000130032edae>; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 02:05:00 +0000 Message-ID: <001401c3a8da$72119e40$a1d92944@rosvle01.mi.comcast.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:04:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "lute list" , "Lute Builder Discussion" From: "Vance Wood" Subject: Re: Woods for lute in Thomas Mace Musick Monument Hi Ron: One more thing. Some one has given you the impression that there are male and female Sycamores. This is not exactly true, Sycamores are monoecious. Both male and female parts exist on the same tree, they are self pollinating. Some trees may produce more seeds than others and as such could be thought of as being female but in fact this is not true biologically. Vance Wood. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Fletcher" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:46 PM Subject: RE: Woods for lute in Thomas Mace Musick Monument > Hi Robert, > > Yes, this is something I have heard too. I would like to know how best to > prepare wood for seasoning. > > I am thinking of splitting the trunk of the Sycamore into two halves once I > have it felled. Is then quartered? Or stored for however many years the > remaining thickness requires? > > BTW. The tree is female, judging by the seeds it drops every year! if this > is not suitable for lutes, it might as well go for logs. I'm all ears for > the expertise on this list. > > Best Wishes > > Ron > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Compton [SMTP:rocoxo@worldnet.att.net] > Sent: 11 November 2003 21:50 > To: ron.fletcher@ntlworld.com > Subject: Re: Woods for lute in Thomas Mace Musick Monument > > Thought I'd throw in my two-cents worth. I've read that seasoning freshly > harvested wood requires something on the order of one year per inch of > thickness. I don't know if that's fact or just legend. Perhaps someone > more knowledgeable could reply. I'm always distressed when I see street > trees cut down and ground to chips wondering if some fine figure might > have > been lost. Robert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ron Fletcher" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 3:16 AM > Subject: RE: Woods for lute in Thomas Mace Musick Monument > > > Hi Martin, > > > > Yes, indeed. For the moment the tree still stands. The trunk must be at > > least 20" diameter and at least 6' is without a branch. There are of > > course small twigs occasionally branch out of it and internally could > > create some figuring. > > > > The branches are long and gives plenty of shade (I will miss that!) I > plan > > to lop the branches, then gradually saw or chop through the radial roots > > untill the remaining portion 'gives' and can be pulled over. But, the > > problem I will have is sawing through the trunk. I only have a small > > electric chain-saw, bow-saw and a felling axe. I suppose I could invite > > friends round for a 'chop-in'! > > > > The next stage would be preparing for seasoning. I expect the trunk > would > > need to be split end-to-end (with wedges) to assist the process, and > avoid > > the shakes (I might have those by then!) and splits, which I might spot > my > > neighbours having!! > > > > Best Wishes > > > > Ron > > Loughborough (Down the A6) > > > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to lute-builder-discuss as: > ron.fletcher@ntlworld.com. > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > leave-lute-builder-discuss-1604J@internetlutesociety.com > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to lute-builder-discuss as: bondojo@comcast.net. > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-lute-builder-discuss-1604J@internetlutesociety.com From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Sun Nov 23 09:26:25 2003 Received: from mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.116]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hANEQPKs026203 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 09:26:25 -0500 Received: from vaiogl (acbfff8a.ipt.aol.com[172.191.255.138]) by worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc12) with SMTP id <2003112314262311200a04nge> (Authid: grcox@worldnet.att.net); Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:26:23 +0000 Message-ID: <00fe01c3b1cd$bcb18b30$6d00fea9@VaioGL> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 09:26:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: From: "G Cox" Subject: gutar 'lute tuning', and ren lute design greetings, some years ago I had details on who to suitably return a = guitar allowing lute 'practice'. Can someone refresh my memory please. There is a nice looking ren lute on Art Robs web page at = www.argonet.co.uk/artlute/inst.html. I have forgotten the design origin = of the more oval body of this type. I thought it might reflect medieval = / ren transition; specific to some known makers? Also, Charles Ford; = anyone offer any knowledge on this maker (the maker of this instrument). Thanks, Geoff -- From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Mon Dec 1 06:36:33 2003 Received: from tahoe.cs.dartmouth.edu (tahoe.cs.dartmouth.edu [129.170.212.20]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB1BaWnm008021 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 06:36:33 -0500 Received: from tahoe.cs.dartmouth.edu (tahoe.cs.dartmouth.edu [129.170.212.20]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB1BaWnm008021 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 06:36:33 -0500 Message-Id: <200312011136.hB1BaWjs029552@tahoe.cs.dartmouth.edu> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL6] Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 06:36:32 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: Wayne Cripps Reply-To: wbc@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: where can one get small quantities of hide glue? I would like to get a small amount of hide glue to repair the peghead of my lute, but stewart-macdonald and luthier's mercantile have minimum orders. Is good hide glue available somewhere in small quantaties, with no minimum order? (I am using knox gelatine to experiment with but it is a bit thick to work with) Wayne From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Mon Dec 1 09:37:39 2003 Received: from sccmmhc02.asp.att.net (sccmmhc02.asp.att.net [204.127.203.184]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB1Ebcnl012942; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 09:37:38 -0500 Received: from anthony (12-221-18-255.client.insightbb.com[12.221.18.255]) by sccmmhc02.asp.att.net (sccmmhc02) with SMTP id <20031201143738mm2006u95de>; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:37:38 +0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 08:41:05 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: , From: "Anthony Glass" Subject: RE: where can one get small quantities of hide glue? If you have a Woodcraft, Rockler or some such woodworking store in town, they should carry the Behlan brand "Master" hide glue--one can for about 8-9 bucks. Makes about four cups worth I think that's the same brand StewMac sells. I used this glue to assemble my bowl for Dave Van Edward's BYORL course. It hasn't fallen apart yet! It should suffice for repair jobs, but I'd be interested in hearing a pro's opinion on the stuff as to long-term instrument suitability. Tony Glass > -----Original Message----- > From: Wayne Cripps [mailto:wbc@cs.dartmouth.edu] > Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 5:37 AM > To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: where can one get small quantities of hide glue? > > > > > I would like to get a small amount of hide glue to repair > the peghead of my lute, but stewart-macdonald and > luthier's mercantile have minimum orders. Is good > hide glue available somewhere in small quantaties, with > no minimum order? (I am using knox gelatine to experiment > with but it is a bit thick to work with) > > Wayne > > From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Mon Dec 1 10:15:51 2003 Received: from apollo.email.starband.net (apollo.email.starband.net [148.78.247.132]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB1FFpnl014748; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 10:15:51 -0500 Received: from computer (vsat-148-63-91-35.c002.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.91.35]) (authenticated bits=0) by apollo.email.starband.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hB1FFiLF014807; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 10:15:55 -0500 Message-ID: <002b01c3b815$fe2a12a0$235b3f94@computer> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 08:18:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: , , "Anthony Glass" From: "Michael Thames" Subject: Re: where can one get small quantities of hide glue? Dear Anthony and Wayne, I would recommend not using the liquid hide glue at all for anything other than gluing paper together for your kids school projects. I would think Belens hide glue is OK. However, the best hide glue comes from... Bjorn industries inc. phone# 704 364 1186, the grade you need is # 251 the thing is you have to buy a min. of $50.00 worth. Wayne, are there any lute or guitar makers living near you? all you probably need is a spoonful of glue,which you could bum from someone. If you can't find what you need give me your address and I'll send you a spoon full. Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Glass" To: ; Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 8:41 AM Subject: RE: where can one get small quantities of hide glue? > If you have a Woodcraft, Rockler or some such woodworking store in town, > they > should carry the Behlan brand "Master" hide glue--one can for about 8-9 > bucks. Makes about > four cups worth I think that's the same brand StewMac sells. I used this > glue to assemble my bowl for Dave Van Edward's BYORL course. It hasn't > fallen apart yet! It should suffice for repair jobs, but I'd be interested > in > hearing a pro's opinion on the stuff as to long-term instrument suitability. > > Tony Glass > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Wayne Cripps [mailto:wbc@cs.dartmouth.edu] > > Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 5:37 AM > > To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Subject: where can one get small quantities of hide glue? > > > > > > > > > > I would like to get a small amount of hide glue to repair > > the peghead of my lute, but stewart-macdonald and > > luthier's mercantile have minimum orders. Is good > > hide glue available somewhere in small quantaties, with > > no minimum order? (I am using knox gelatine to experiment > > with but it is a bit thick to work with) > > > > Wayne > > > > > > From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Mon Dec 1 10:22:12 2003 Received: from miranda.zianet.com (miranda.zianet.com [216.234.192.169]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id hB1FMCnl015094 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 10:22:12 -0500 Received: from miranda.zianet.com (miranda.zianet.com [216.234.192.169]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id hB1FMCnl015094 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 10:22:12 -0500 Message-ID: <3FCB5C29.30302@solsurvival.com> Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 08:20:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: Eric Liefeld Subject: Finish for Macassar ebony... Good morning lute builders, We are experimenting with finishes for a lute built with Macassar ebony (through David Van Edwards' on-line course). Does anyone have any experience finishing this wood? Our stick of Macassar ebony is mostly dark brown without the yellowish stripes often seen on this wood (see David's gallery for photos, http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/rengallery/index.html). There is, nontheless, some nice figure that we'd like to retain. Here are some of the things we've tried so far: - Oil finishes (Danish oil, etc) seem to darken things rather completely - Renaissance Wax seems to leave lots of pores open/visible but the resulting color is rather dull gray/brown. R. Wax does yield a nice hard finish. - Plain old Johnson's Paste Wax seems to produce the warmest and truest result to our eyes... but we're concerned that this may not be an appropriate finish for a lute. Any and all suggestions gratefully received. Should I be concerned that a waxed lute will be impossible to hold? :-) Thanks, Eric From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Mon Dec 1 12:03:37 2003 Received: from ams003.ftl.affinity.com (lvs00-fl-n03.valueweb.net [216.219.253.136]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB1H3anl019484 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:03:36 -0500 Received: from dan.daniellarson.com ([216.251.182.185]) by ams.ftl.affinity.com with ESMTP id <2727598-9186>; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:01:07 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20031201105244.0239f728@pop.daniellarson.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 11:00:14 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: Dan Larson Subject: RE: where can one get small quantities of hide glue? > > > > > I would like to get a small amount of hide glue to repair > > the peghead of my lute, but stewart-macdonald and > > luthier's mercantile have minimum orders. Is good > > hide glue available somewhere in small quantaties, with > > no minimum order? (I am using knox gelatine to experiment > > with but it is a bit thick to work with) I am always happy to sell small quantities of glue. I stock and use 512 glue. For those who are not familiar with hide glue, this is an "extra virgin" quality of glue. It comes from the first pressing and has a large molecular structure, is water clear when melted, and is the strongest of the hide glues. Really good stuff. Dan Larson 26 N. 28th Ave. E. Duluth, MN 55812 Toll Free phone/fax in the USA: 1-888-724-8099 Outside the USA phone/fax: 1-218-724-8011 website: www.daniellarson.com From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Sun Dec 7 15:45:32 2003 Received: from scrabble.freeuk.net (scrabble.freeuk.net [212.126.144.29]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB7KjT7b005564 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 2003 15:45:32 -0500 Received: from du-009-0195.freeuk.com ([212.126.152.195] helo=localhost.com) by scrabble.freeuk.net with smtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AT5mR-000Paw-Rf for lute-builders@cs.dartmouth.edu; Sun, 07 Dec 2003 20:45:28 +0000 Message-ID: <4b72365d4c.artlute@freeuk.com> Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 19:20:37 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/2.62 (MsgServe/2.05) (RISC-OS/4.02) POPstar/2.03 To: lute-builders@cs.dartmouth.edu From: Art Robb Subject: RE: where can one get small quantities of hide glue? Wayne, I don't know what it's like in the states, but in England many violin makers use hide glue. I always get my hide glue from suppliers to violin makers. I'll add my name to the list to send you a few spoonfuls! Art -- Arthur Robb email artlute@argonet.co.uk web www.argonet.co.uk/artlut Musical Intrument Maker - Lutes Guitars Repairs Restorations WATCH OUT FOR A NEW EMAIL ADDRESS AND WEBSITE URL SOON From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Mon Dec 8 21:40:25 2003 Received: from misav04.sasknet.sk.ca (misav04.sasknet.sk.ca [142.165.20.165]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB92eO7b019158 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 2003 21:40:25 -0500 Received: from kimtrav (sktnsk01d05020190.sk.sympatico.ca [142.165.104.90]) by thyme.sasktel.net (SaskTel eMessaging Service) with ESMTPA id <0HPL00IPSWQWMF@thyme.sasktel.net> for lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu; Mon, 08 Dec 2003 20:40:23 -0600 (CST) Message-id: <001401c3bdfe$9c865ce0$5a68a58e@kimtrav> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 20:45:52 -0600 MIME-version: 1.0 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: travis carey Subject: paper and glue for lute rose pattern Lute Builders: Does anyone have advice on what type of paper and glue one uses for the rose pattern? I build with hide glue but hesitate to use it for gluing the rose pattern on the underside of the soundboard, since it tends to shrink the paper as it dries and to curl up the spruce it's glued to... any suggestions? Yours, Travis Carey From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Tue Dec 9 07:08:31 2003 Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB9C8R7b000700 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 07:08:31 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([81.109.187.43]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20031209120823.EFGM15813.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@[192.168.1.100]>; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:08:23 +0000 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:10:30 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: travis carey Cc: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: David Van Edwards Subject: Re: paper and glue for lute rose pattern Dear Travis, Good quality 150gram acid-free watercolour paper. In my experience there is no problem with using hide glue. I soak the paper in the glue for 15 minutes and then glue it on the soundboard and use a roller to squeeze out excess glue. Slight shrinkage occasionally but nothing to worry about, cutting the pattern relieves any compression in the spruce. Best wishes, David At 8:45 PM -0600 8/12/03, travis carey wrote: >Lute Builders: > >Does anyone have advice on what type of paper and glue one uses for the rose >pattern? I build with hide glue but hesitate to use it for gluing the rose >pattern on the underside of the soundboard, since it tends to shrink the >paper as it dries and to curl up the spruce it's glued to... any >suggestions? > >Yours, Travis Carey -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Tue Dec 9 17:16:11 2003 Received: from cepheus.email.starband.net (cepheus.email.starband.net [148.78.247.123]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB9MGB7b025580 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:16:11 -0500 Received: from computer (vsat-148-63-91-35.c002.t7.mrt.starband.net [148.63.91.35]) (authenticated bits=0) by cepheus.email.starband.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hB9MEj5d007855; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:14:58 -0500 Message-ID: <002701c3be9a$197efea0$235b3f94@computer> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:19:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: , "travis carey" From: "Michael Thames" Subject: Re: paper and glue for lute rose pattern Travis, I've noticed a similar problem when using hide glue to glue rosettes on guitar tops. When hide glue shrinks it pulls the actual rosette,and causes a devastating cup in the top, to the point where I had to throw a couple of tops away as I couldn't bend them back flat without cracking the wood. Oddly enough I've never experienced this with titebond. Hide glue is very strong and in higher grades they use it to actually etch glass. And I've found it does pull and shrink more than other glues. Any water based glue will do this. However, as David said I think this is a none issue on the lute. The only way around it is to use an epoxy as it won't swell the wood, but that is not really kosher on a lute. Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames ----- Original Message ----- From: "travis carey" To: Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 8:45 PM Subject: paper and glue for lute rose pattern > Lute Builders: > > Does anyone have advice on what type of paper and glue one uses for the rose > pattern? I build with hide glue but hesitate to use it for gluing the rose > pattern on the underside of the soundboard, since it tends to shrink the > paper as it dries and to curl up the spruce it's glued to... any > suggestions? > > Yours, Travis Carey > > From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Tue Dec 9 18:27:18 2003 Received: from scrabble.freeuk.net (scrabble.freeuk.net [212.126.144.29]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hB9NRH7b028035 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2003 18:27:17 -0500 Received: from du-009-0058.freeuk.com ([212.126.152.58] helo=localhost.com) by scrabble.freeuk.net with smtp (Exim 4.22) id 1ATrG7-000Cqp-MW for lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu; Tue, 09 Dec 2003 23:27:16 +0000 Message-ID: <77f3515e4c.artlute@freeuk.com> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 22:57:15 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/2.62 (MsgServe/2.05) (RISC-OS/4.02) POPstar/2.03 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: Art Robb Subject: Re: paper and glue for lute rose pattern Hi, I find hide glue works for both of these jobs. Once the paper or rosette is applied, the soundboard needs to be kept absolutely flat for several days. Heavy books weighting down the rosette would work but this does not help with the lute rose paper pattern as the soundboard has varying thicknesses. The rosette should be glued in before the s/b is thicknessed. The rose pattern is glued to the underside of the lute s/b after thicknessing. I place the s/b on a flat surface, top down, sheet of white paper underneath. Apply thin hot hide glue to s/b and align the rose pattern. A small piece of wax paper over the pattern is followed by another sheet of white paper, topped by a 1/4 inch layer of cork or rubber. Go poles (go bars) smash the lot flat. Leave for three days to allow the moisture to wick out. Works for me. Also, as my website was mentioned here a week or two ago, I'd like to let you know that it has moved to: www.art-robb.co.uk Keep those tools sharp, Art Robb > Travis, > I've noticed a similar problem when using hide glue to glue rosettes on > guitar tops. When hide glue shrinks it pulls the actual rosette,and causes > a devastating cup in the top, to the point where I had to throw a couple of > tops away as I couldn't bend them back flat without cracking the wood. > Oddly enough I've never experienced this with titebond. Hide glue is very > strong and in higher grades they use it to actually etch glass. And I've > found it does pull and shrink more than other glues. Any water based glue > will do this. > However, as David said I think this is a none issue on the lute. > The only way around it is to use an epoxy as it won't swell the wood, > but that is not really kosher on a lute. > Michael Thames > Luthier > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "travis carey" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 8:45 PM > Subject: paper and glue for lute rose pattern > > > > Lute Builders: > > > > Does anyone have advice on what type of paper and glue one uses for the > rose > > pattern? I build with hide glue but hesitate to use it for gluing the > rose > > pattern on the underside of the soundboard, since it tends to shrink the > > paper as it dries and to curl up the spruce it's glued to... any > > suggestions? > > > > Yours, Travis Carey > > > > > > > > -- Arthur Robb email art@art-robb.co.uk web www.art-robb.co.uk Musical Intrument Maker - Lutes Guitars Repairs Restorations From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Sat Dec 27 18:11:11 2003 Received: from miranda.zianet.com (miranda.zianet.com [216.234.192.169]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id hBRNBBYQ004490 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:11:11 -0500 Received: from miranda.zianet.com (miranda.zianet.com [216.234.192.169]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id hBRNBBYQ004490 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:11:11 -0500 Message-ID: <3FEE10F8.2020001@solsurvival.com> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 16:08:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu CC: Eric Liefeld , David Van Edwards From: Eric Liefeld Subject: Reinforcing strips -> sprung ribs... My father is building a lute through David Van Edwards "Build Your Own Renaissance Lute" on-line course. Unfortunately, he's having fits with placing the reinforcing strips inside the lute back that he's built. As he's layed each one in he's heard audible pops and cracks... upon inspection, several of the joints have opened back up between some of the ribs. This is happening even though the back is well-taped. Neeless to say, he is most upset with this development... Is this normal or is he doing something wrong? He is moving pretty quickly with the reinforcing tapes (papers) and we had hoped that that would be enough to keep the joints from undoing themselves. Given that several joints are now open... nicely reinforced with tape on the inside, what is the best way to get them back together. Thanks for any and all advice... Eric From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Sun Dec 28 11:48:10 2003 Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.176]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hBSGm9YQ006817 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 2003 11:48:09 -0500 Received: from [213.168.98.15] (helo=[213.168.98.15]) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Aae5I-0006VM-00; Sun, 28 Dec 2003 17:48:08 +0100 Message-Id: <56238FF8-3955-11D8-96D8-00039372AF1E@netcologne.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 17:46:08 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v609) To: Eric Liefeld Cc: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: Gernot Hilger Subject: Re: Reinforcing strips -> sprung ribs... Eric, what a nasty surprise. No, of course, this is not normal. I should think that the glue was possibly a bit on the thin side when gluing the ribs or your particular wood may have been somewhat oily. I had - if I remember well enough- ONE joint which gave way somehow in the process, so I know what it sounds like. Frightening. However, it should be easy to reglue the joint. Remove the sellotape in the offending area, apply a little thumb pressure from the inside and work hot glue into the crevices. Retape everything and the joint should be fine. If the tapes are still freshly glued in and not bone-dry, you probably do not need to remove the paper tapes. Otherwise, the iron-and-wet-cloth method which David describes might be worth a try. I am sure that David will give you better advice. But I believe the issue may be a bit worrying, but it is not too serious. Hide glue makes a lot of things possible which one could never do with PVA. Please let us know how your father solved the problem. Thank you and good luck Gernot On 28.12.2003, at 00:08, Eric Liefeld wrote: > My father is building a lute through David Van Edwards > "Build Your Own Renaissance Lute" on-line course. > Unfortunately, he's having fits with placing the reinforcing > strips inside the lute back that he's built. As he's layed each > one in he's heard audible pops and cracks... upon inspection, > several of the joints have opened back up between some > of the ribs. This is happening even though the back is > well-taped. Neeless to say, he is most upset with this > development... > > Is this normal or is he doing something wrong? He is > moving pretty quickly with the reinforcing tapes (papers) > and we had hoped that that would be enough to keep the > joints from undoing themselves. > > Given that several joints are now open... nicely reinforced > with tape on the inside, what is the best way to get them > back together. > > Thanks for any and all advice... > > Eric > > From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Sun Dec 28 11:56:04 2003 Received: from mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (mta07-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.47]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hBSGu3YQ006945 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 2003 11:56:03 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.101] ([81.100.213.87]) by mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20031228165604.ZIUR2588.mta07-svc.ntlworld.com@[192.168.1.101]>; Sun, 28 Dec 2003 16:56:04 +0000 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 16:59:00 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Liefeld Cc: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu, Eric Liefeld From: David Van Edwards Subject: Re: Reinforcing strips -> sprung ribs... Dear Eric, That indeed is rather unusual and worrying. I've never had that problem and it does rather suggest something amiss with the gluing of the original joints. He's using rosewood as I remember and, while I've never had problems with it, legend does have it that it's rather reluctant to glue. Maybe the original glue was not hot enough or strong enough. All is not lost though. Prepare some stronger than average hot glue and cut away the sellotape from the areas where the joints have opened up. Work on each joint separately. Take a domestic iron set to medium or low heat and heat the joint well with the iron applied over a damp cloth on the outside and some of the hot glue to wet the tape on the inside. When the joint is nice and loose and can be closed up with pressure from the iron, quickly run some of the new hot glue into it and tape it closed with more sellotape stretched tightly across on the outside. [Check the alignment between the ribs!] While it is still warm put more hot glue on the inside and make sure that the paper tape is well settled down onto the joint. Don't worry too much about cleaning it up inside until the joint has dried for 24 hours, then wipe off excess with warm water. The effect of this re-heating will drive the hot glue deeper into the surface of the rosewood and drive out any rosewood oils that might be causing trouble. The result will be perfectly strong and should give no further trouble. Best wishes, David At 4:08 PM -0700 27/12/03, Eric Liefeld wrote: >My father is building a lute through David Van Edwards >"Build Your Own Renaissance Lute" on-line course. >Unfortunately, he's having fits with placing the reinforcing >strips inside the lute back that he's built. As he's layed each >one in he's heard audible pops and cracks... upon inspection, >several of the joints have opened back up between some >of the ribs. This is happening even though the back is >well-taped. Neeless to say, he is most upset with this >development... > >Is this normal or is he doing something wrong? He is >moving pretty quickly with the reinforcing tapes (papers) >and we had hoped that that would be enough to keep the >joints from undoing themselves. > >Given that several joints are now open... nicely reinforced >with tape on the inside, what is the best way to get them >back together. > >Thanks for any and all advice... > >Eric -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Sun Dec 28 13:10:22 2003 Received: from miranda.zianet.com (miranda.zianet.com [216.234.192.169]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id hBSIALYQ008980 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 2003 13:10:21 -0500 Received: from miranda.zianet.com (miranda.zianet.com [216.234.192.169]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id hBSIALYQ008980 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 2003 13:10:21 -0500 Message-Id: <0ED2291C-3961-11D8-80AE-000A957D45C6@solsurvival.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 11:10:03 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) To: David Van Edwards Cc: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: Eric Liefeld Subject: Re: Reinforcing strips -> sprung ribs... Thanks David, Dan, Gernot, (et al) for your responses and advice. I've forwarded your messages along to my father. Though I haven't seen the lute-back since this happened, he was apparently able to get things to close up (somewhat, at least) by heating the joint with a small modeling iron and squeezing things back together. I'll tell him to try to work more glue into the joint as well. The ribs in this case are Macassar ebony. It has been rather a pain from the beginning (my fault... as it was my choice). I'm not sure what went wrong but I tend not to suspect the nature of the joint as I know he took great time and care to make them light-tight. Poor quality or poorly prepared glue is certainly a possibility but I remember him getting good glue, I'll check. When he started putting on the strips, he also had the lute-back in a sort of former that he had constructed to hold the upper edge to the exact shape of the (eventual) soundboard outline. I wonder if this form introduced some tensions that released when the hot glue was applied. I'll follow up if anything interesting happens... Of course now I have to convince him to apply the rest of the strips! :-) Eric On Sunday, December 28, 2003, at 09:59 AM, David Van Edwards wrote: > Dear Eric, > > That indeed is rather unusual and worrying. I've never had that > problem and it does rather suggest something amiss with the gluing of > the original joints. He's using rosewood as I remember and, while I've > never had problems with it, legend does have it that it's rather > reluctant to glue. Maybe the original glue was not hot enough or > strong enough. > > All is not lost though. > > Prepare some stronger than average hot glue and cut away the sellotape > from the areas where the joints have opened up. Work on each joint > separately. Take a domestic iron set to medium or low heat and heat > the joint well with the iron applied over a damp cloth on the outside > and some of the hot glue to wet the tape on the inside. When the joint > is nice and loose and can be closed up with pressure from the iron, > quickly run some of the new hot glue into it and tape it closed with > more sellotape stretched tightly across on the outside. [Check the > alignment between the ribs!] While it is still warm put more hot glue > on the inside and make sure that the paper tape is well settled down > onto the joint. Don't worry too much about cleaning it up inside until > the joint has dried for 24 hours, then wipe off excess with warm > water. > > The effect of this re-heating will drive the hot glue deeper into the > surface of the rosewood and drive out any rosewood oils that might be > causing trouble. The result will be perfectly strong and should give > no further trouble. > > Best wishes, > > David > > At 4:08 PM -0700 27/12/03, Eric Liefeld wrote: >> My father is building a lute through David Van Edwards >> "Build Your Own Renaissance Lute" on-line course. >> Unfortunately, he's having fits with placing the reinforcing >> strips inside the lute back that he's built. As he's layed each >> one in he's heard audible pops and cracks... upon inspection, >> several of the joints have opened back up between some >> of the ribs. This is happening even though the back is >> well-taped. Neeless to say, he is most upset with this >> development... >> >> Is this normal or is he doing something wrong? He is >> moving pretty quickly with the reinforcing tapes (papers) >> and we had hoped that that would be enough to keep the >> joints from undoing themselves. >> >> Given that several joints are now open... nicely reinforced >> with tape on the inside, what is the best way to get them >> back together. >> >> Thanks for any and all advice... >> >> Eric > > > -- > The Smokehouse, > 6 Whitwell Road, > Norwich, NR1 4HB England. > > Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 > Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk > > From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Mon Dec 29 06:02:05 2003 Received: from ev6.be.wanadoo.com (ev6.be.wanadoo.com [195.74.212.41]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hBTB24YQ031515 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 2003 06:02:05 -0500 Received: from beneden (adsl-159-131.wanadoo.be [213.177.159.131]) by ev6.be.wanadoo.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id hBTC3QBf027182; Mon, 29 Dec 2003 13:03:26 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 12:01:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Eric Liefeld" , "David Van Edwards" Cc: From: "peter verhoeven" Subject: RE: Reinforcing strips -> sprung ribs... Hi all, Once I had the same problem, and after some good contemplation I found out that I was putting on the strips too wet. When wood gets wet on one side only it will bend too much and eventually open the joint. So be sure to impregnate your strip with hide-glue that is not too wet, and let it stiffen up a bit before glueing. The joints can easily be re-glued as said, so there's no worry ... but I know the feeling ... and it's horrible ! Sometimes, in my nightmares ... succes ! peter -- From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Mon Dec 29 07:04:34 2003 Received: from mpmail4.accesstoledo.com (mpmail4.accesstoledo.com [208.16.180.238]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hBTC4XYQ000393 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 2003 07:04:33 -0500 Received: from buckeye-express.com (unverified [65.221.49.36]) by buckeye-express.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 5.3.6) with ESMTP id for ; Sun, 28 Dec 2003 12:59:02 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 12:59:55 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) To: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: Timothy Motz Subject: Re: Reinforcing strips -> sprung ribs... Eric, The glued joints shouldn't be that fragile. If the edges of the ribs were clean and planed to the right angle before gluing, I would wonder about the glue. There are a lot of things that can go wrong with glues: too old, frozen during shipping or storage in the wholesaler's warehouse, not at the right temperature when applied, not mixed right, etc. The only time I had any kind of a glue joint fail like that (with instruments or with furniture) was with a batch of epoxy that I now think was bad. I re-did the joint with different epoxy and everything was fine. I did a test on different pieces of wood with the old epoxy and it didn't hold. Your dad might try testing his glue that way. If it's any comfort to your father, it's much better that the joints gave way now than after the soundboard was glued on. But I can imagine his frustration level! I would also be interested in knowing how to repair bad joints. I'm pretty new at this myself, but as a favor I'm repairing a lute with a couple of bad joints in the back that have come apart. Stewart-MacDonald sells a water-thin instant glue that is supposed to flow into cracks. Tim Motz On Saturday, December 27, 2003, at 06:08 PM, Eric Liefeld wrote: > My father is building a lute through David Van Edwards > "Build Your Own Renaissance Lute" on-line course. > Unfortunately, he's having fits with placing the reinforcing > strips inside the lute back that he's built. As he's layed each > one in he's heard audible pops and cracks... upon inspection, > several of the joints have opened back up between some > of the ribs. This is happening even though the back is > well-taped. Neeless to say, he is most upset with this > development... > > Is this normal or is he doing something wrong? He is > moving pretty quickly with the reinforcing tapes (papers) > and we had hoped that that would be enough to keep the > joints from undoing themselves. > > Given that several joints are now open... nicely reinforced > with tape on the inside, what is the best way to get them > back together. > > Thanks for any and all advice... > > Eric > > From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Mon Dec 29 08:13:52 2003 Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hBTDDpYQ001700 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:13:51 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([81.100.213.87]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20031229131342.GOBI26519.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@[192.168.1.100]>; Mon, 29 Dec 2003 13:13:42 +0000 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 13:16:27 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Timothy Motz Cc: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: David Van Edwards Subject: Re: Reinforcing strips -> sprung ribs... Dear Tim, The big advice is NOT to use any modern glues like epoxy or instant [cyano-acrylate] glues on a musical instrument, especially a lute or violin. (Some guitar-makers do use modern glues but they are not suitable for the lute or violin) Your advice about test pieces is well put, but I worry when I hear you suggest modern glues. Seriously you should not be thinking of repairing a lute, especially rib joints, with these. Any future repairs will be much more difficult and expensive if modern glues have been used and your friend may end up cursing! For good hot glue [hide glue, animal glue] information have a look at http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/glue.htm Good hot glue will also flow by capillary action into the finest cracks, especially if you move the crack slightly. Flex the crack to and fro a bit, put plenty more hot glue on and in, flex it some more then cramp up using Sellotape [Scotch tape]. clean up after four hours with warm water and toothbrush. Best wishes, David At 12:59 PM -0500 28/12/03, Timothy Motz wrote: > > >I would also be interested in knowing how to repair bad joints. I'm >pretty new at this myself, but as a favor I'm repairing a lute with a >couple of bad joints in the back that have come apart. >Stewart-MacDonald sells a water-thin instant glue that is supposed to >flow into cracks. > >Tim Motz -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Mon Dec 29 11:10:29 2003 Received: from klaatu.zianet.com (virtmail.zianet.com [216.234.192.37]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id hBTGASYQ006750 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 2003 11:10:28 -0500 Received: from klaatu.zianet.com (virtmail.zianet.com [216.234.192.37]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id hBTGASYQ006750 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 2003 11:10:28 -0500 Message-ID: <20031229161043.5239.qmail@klaatu.zianet.com> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 16:10:43 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "peter verhoeven" Cc: lute-builder@cs.dartmouth.edu From: "Eric Liefeld" Subject: Re: Reinforcing strips -> sprung ribs... Thank you Peter, What you describe makes a good deal of sense to us. We've watched these ribs move around (before being glued) as humidity changed so your explanation certainly seems like a possibility. It is *very* dry here right now which may also have contributed. Judging by my father's voice on that first phone call, it was indeed a bad experience. Apparently he put on two reinforcing strips, then a few minutes later, from across the room, he heard two little "tick"s. To be clear, the joints only opened a small distance... but still... he needed to be "talked down" :-) Eric peter verhoeven writes: > Hi all, > > Once I had the same problem, and after some good contemplation I found out > that I was putting on the strips too wet. When wood gets wet on one side > only it will bend too much and eventually open the joint. So be sure to > impregnate your strip with hide-glue that is not too wet, and let it stiffen > up a bit before glueing. > > The joints can easily be re-glued as said, so there's no worry ... but I > know the feeling ... and it's horrible ! Sometimes, in my nightmares ... > > succes ! > > peter > > > > -- From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Mon Dec 29 22:03:30 2003 Received: from sccmmhc02.asp.att.net (sccmmhc02.asp.att.net [204.127.203.184]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hBU33UYQ023927 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:03:30 -0500 Received: from anthony (12-221-29-180.client.insightbb.com[12.221.29.180]) by sccmmhc02.asp.att.net (sccmmhc02) with SMTP id <20031230030329mm2005sd3qe>; Tue, 30 Dec 2003 03:03:29 +0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 20:58:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Lute Builder's List" From: "Anthony Glass" Subject: On the subject of glue joints... Group, While we're on the subject of joints not being "light tight", as Eric put it, I too have have a looming disaster concerning a soundboard joint that didn't quite clamp up as tightly as it should. I realized it as I was starting to plane it down--what looked like a shadow produced by one board being a bit thicker than the other (or not quite aligned) turned out to my dismay to be the result of not having quite enough clamping pressure in the middle. Plenty of glue, to be sure, but the seam just didn't close up during the clamping process. Can this be corrected without undoing the seam altogether, cleaning, rejointing, etc.? I wouldn't have a problem taking this route, except that the soundboard is already narrow enough that any further jointing would leave insufficient material at the widest part of the top; at present there's only about a quarter inch on either side. I could scrap it and save it for a descant lute, I suppose, but I'd like to salvage it for the present if at all possible. I was considering just heating the seam and reclamping until it closed up, but I wasn't sure if this was a sound solution or not. Thanks for listening! Tony Glass From lute-builder-request@cs.dartmouth.edu Tue Dec 30 04:46:20 2003 Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by mail.cs.dartmouth.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hBU9kKYQ000592 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 2003 04:46:20 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([81.100.213.87]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20031230094611.RCGJ29762.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@[192.168.1.100]>; Tue, 30 Dec 2003 09:46:11 +0000 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 09:49:19 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Anthony Glass" Cc: "Lute Builder's List" From: David Van Edwards Subject: Re: On the subject of glue joints... Dear Tony, It's JUST possible you might close the gap in the way you suggest but the strain would be enormous and it would be almost certain to open up again in the first year of playing life. I'm afraid the radical route is the best. Sorry! But quarter of an inch either side is plenty enough for a re-planing job. Try not to waste any more by sawing the joint apart, instead soak it overnight with wet tissue paper either side protected from evaporation with cling-film. Then a gentle heat from an iron should part the joint safely. Following this, let the boards dry for at least two days before touching them with the plane. The joint needs to be perfect with minimal clamping pressure or it will not hold in use, as above. Best wishes, David At 8:58 PM -0600 29/12/03, Anthony Glass wrote: >Group, > >While we're on the subject of joints not being "light tight", as Eric put >it, I too have >have a looming disaster concerning a soundboard joint that didn't quite >clamp up as tightly as it should. >I realized it as I was starting to plane it down--what looked like a shadow >produced by one board >being a bit thicker than the other (or not quite aligned) turned out to my >dismay to be >the result of not having quite enough clamping pressure in the middle. >Plenty of glue, to be sure, >but the seam just didn't close up during the clamping process. > >Can this be corrected without undoing the seam altogether, cleaning, >rejointing, etc.? I wouldn't have a problem taking this route, except that >the soundboard is already narrow enough that any further jointing would >leave insufficient material at the widest part of the top; at present >there's only about a quarter inch on either side. I could scrap it and save >it for a descant lute, I suppose, but I'd like to salvage it for the present >if at all possible. > >I was considering just heating the seam and reclamping until it closed up, >but I wasn't sure if this was a sound >solution or not. > >Thanks for listening! > >Tony Glass -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk