Subject: Corbetta x ornament starting note

From: Ed Durbrow <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 00:43:16 +0900

Has anyone any thoughts about the starting note of the x ornament signs in Corbetta's La Guitar Royal of 1671, particularly the Folia starting on page 79? On p.9 he gives an example of a prepared appoggiatura on the fifth line. but there are numerous places that could be confusing. 

Examples:
P.79, line 4, measure 1: It is kind of jarring to start the trill ( I play a couple of iterations rather than an appoggiatura when the x is on a dotted quarter) on the upper note (B) right after a Bb in the top voice.

The top line second measure of p.80 he indicates a slur f > e followed by x. The f > e is already an appoggiatura. The only thing I can think of is to reiterate the upper neighbor f from the e note, an upper mordant.

P.80 third line from bottom, 2nd measure: What's this about? X on a 16th note but preceded by an appoggiatura from above or below? 
TIA

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/

---

From: "Monica Hall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 16:20:49 -0000

By chance I have a recording of Antonio Ligios playing this piece and as far 
as I can tell he is doing exactly what the ornaments seem to imply...

> Has anyone any thoughts about the starting note of the x ornament signs in
> Corbetta's La Guitar Royal of 1671, particularly the Folia starting on
> page 79? On p.9 he gives an example of a prepared appoggiatura on the
> fifth line. but there are numerous places that could be confusing.

The x indicates that the auxiliary note or starting note is from above.
>
> Examples:
> P.79, line 4, measure 1: It is kind of jarring to start the trill ( I play
> a couple of iterations rather than an appoggiatura when the x is on a
> dotted quarter) on the upper note (B) right after a Bb in the top voice.

I think the point is that it is an A major chord and you can't play a B flat 
auxiliary note.  It must be B  natural.  The cross relations (if that is the 
correct terminology) are quite  typical of Corbetta's style.
>
> The top line second measure of p.80 he indicates a slur f > e followed by
> x. The f > e is already an appoggiatura. The only thing I can think of is
> to reiterate the upper neighbor f from the e note, an upper mordant.

I think that is what is intended here..and what Ligios seems to play....the 
notes are a  f  f-e d
>
> P.80 third line from bottom, 2nd measure: What's this about? X on a 16th
> note but preceded by an appoggiatura from above or below?

From above I think -the notes are g   g-f  e.

That's my 2 pennyworth anyway.   I expect someone will contradict me.

> TIA

What does TIA mean?

Regards

Monica

> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---

From: "Monica Hall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 08:53:47 -0000

Thank you - I am not "au fait" with internet jargon.

   Monica

   ----- Original Message -----

   From: [1]Ed Durbrow

   To: [2]Monica Hall

   Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 4:53 AM

   Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta x ornament starting note

   On Jan 22, 2013, at 1:20 AM, "Monica Hall" <[3][email-masked]>
   wrote:

     What does TIA mean?

     Thanks in advance.

   And thanks. I'll sit down with the guitar and digest what you wrote
   late.

   Ed Durbrow
   Saitama, Japan
   [4]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
   [5]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/

   --

References

   1. mailto:[email-masked]
   2. mailto:[email-masked]
   3. mailto:[email-masked]
   4. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
   5. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/

---

From: Ed Durbrow <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 20:00:59 +0900

Thanks Monica, 
I put my comments in line.

On Jan 22, 2013, at 1:20 AM, Monica Hall <[email-masked]> wrote:

> By chance I have a recording of Antonio Ligios playing this piece and as far as I can tell he is doing exactly what the ornaments seem to imply…

Does he have any web presence? I couldn't find his performance on YouTube.

> I think the point is that it is an A major chord and you can't play a B flat auxiliary note.  It must be B  natural.

Yes, B natural is a given. It just doesn't feel very natural to me to jump to that A chord and land with my third finger on a B, whereas starting with the A chord feels very natural.

>  The cross relations (if that is the correct terminology) are quite  typical of Corbetta's style.

I guess he was pretty 'out there' with no preparation and all. It sounds jarring to me, but like you say maybe that was his style.

> I think that is what is intended here..and what Ligios seems to play....the notes are a  f  f-e d

We may or may not be talking about the same place. I was saying f  e f e concerning the notes on the first string, with the e f e being like a mordant on beat two (2 32 notes and 1 16th note) and the initial e being pulled off from the f on the second half of beat one. Then, the same type of thing on beat three, a mordant with the initial note C# being pulled off from the D on the second half of beat 2. I'm wondering if other people do this as this case isn't illustrated on his ornaments page. Perhaps he gives an example like this in another book? I don't see anything in Varii Capricii 1643.

> From above I think -the notes are g   g-f  e.

Well, there is an A at the end of the previous measure so that would make a nice prepared appoggiatura. The problem though is, then you have another appoggiatura on the F which means switching out of the third position (3rd fret) and all four notes happen in half a beat. Someone with very long fingers could perhaps sustain the D with the second finger and pull off pinky-ring and then reiterate the G and pull off ring to index. I interpret the line below as an appoggiatura from below as indicated on the ornaments page and then do a quick mordant on the F which comes out as a 32 note triplet in order to land on the E on the second half of the beat. This sounds pretty nifty with no ugly cut off like I would get trying to do an upper neighbor appoggiatura. I'm just not sure if this wasn't some kind of mistake, two ornaments on two 16th notes seems pushing it.

The basic problem I'm having, well two really, is 1. you can't do an appoggiatura from above if a slur from the same neighbor precedes it. 2. Many places call for reiterations to my ear, especially cadences where there is a dotted quarter note followed by an eighth (quaver). An appoggiatura sounds wimpy there IMO.

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan

---

From: "Monica Hall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:19:28 -0000

I'm not sure if I am the best person to advise you but.....

The Antonio Ligios' recording is an old one (1998).  It's still available
on Amazon at $25 but not otherwise.  IMHO it is the best of Corbetta
recordings.

Your comments in square brackets...

["Yes, B natural is a given. It just doesn't feel very natural to me to jump
to that A chord and land with my third finger on a B, whereas starting with
the A chord feels very natural"]

The first few bars of line 5 of the Folia  are straightforward.
dmin - g min  Amaj  dmin.= i  iv  V  i in D minor.  The Harvard Dictionary
defines cross relations as 'the succession of a pitch in one voice by a
chromatic alteration of that pitch in another voice'. which is what happens
here - the b is flat in a G minor chord but natural when attached to an A
major one.....it doesn't need to be prepared,  HD gives several examples 
from
Bach.

["The top line second measure of p.80 he indicates a slur f > e followed by
x. The f > e is already an appoggiatura".]

It isn't...harmonically speaking the g on the last quaver in the previous
bar is suspended and resolves on the f - a 7-6 suspension.   Although he has
put a slur under the b-a = f-e I think you should ignore that and play it as 
I suggest i.e. f  f-e d.   The same with the next group of quavers.  They 
are not mordents...

["P.80 third line from bottom, 2nd measure: "]

Well he hasn't indicated an appoggiatura on the first chord of the bar! You 
would switch out of 3rd postion before the G major chord, not after it.

[Finally ...
"1. you can't do an
appoggiatura from above if a slur from the same neighbor precedes it." ]

No but I think you just have to ignore the slur.....

["2. Many places call for reiterations to my ear, especially cadences where
> there is a dotted quarter note followed by an eighth (quaver). An
> appoggiatura sounds wimpy there IMO."]

Well - it is never really made clear that the appgggiatura is to be 
followed by a trill.   It is the same with Bartolotti.   The only thing I 
can suggest is that you exercise your own discretion according to the value 
of the note to which the appoggiatura is attached.   A long note might call 
for something more elaborate.

I'm afraid that is the best I can do.  Maybe someone else would interpret 
the notation differently.

Monica

>> By chance I have a recording of Antonio Ligios playing this piece and as
>> far as I can tell he is doing exactly what the ornaments seem to imply…
>
>> I think the point is that it is an A major chord and you can't play a B
>> flat auxiliary note.  It must be B  natural.
>
> Yes, B natural is a given. It just doesn't feel very natural to me to jump
> to that A chord and land with my third finger on a B, whereas starting
> with the A chord feels very natural.
>
> I guess he was pretty 'out there' with no preparation and all. It sounds
> jarring to me, but like you say maybe that was his style.
>
> We may or may not be talking about the same place. I was saying f  e f e
> concerning the notes on the first string, with the e f e being like a
> mordant on beat two (2 32 notes and 1 16th note) and the initial e being
> pulled off from the f on the second half of beat one. Then, the same type
> of thing on beat three, a mordant with the initial note C# being pulled
> off from the D on the second half of beat 2. I'm wondering if other people
> do this as this case isn't illustrated on his ornaments page. Perhaps he
> gives an example like this in another book? I don't see anything in Varii
> Capricii 1643.
>
> Well, there is an A at the end of the previous measure so that would make
> a nice prepared appoggiatura. The problem though is, then you have another
> appoggiatura on the F which means switching out of the third position (3rd
> fret) and all four notes happen in half a beat. Someone with very long
> fingers could perhaps sustain the D with the second finger and pull off
> pinky-ring and then reiterate the G and pull off ring to index. I
> interpret the line below as an appoggiatura from below as indicated on the
> ornaments page and then do a quick mordant on the F which comes out as a
> 32 note triplet in order to land on the E on the second half of the beat.
> This sounds pretty nifty with no ugly cut off like I would get trying to
> do an upper neighbor appoggiatura. I'm just not sure if this wasn't some
> kind of mistake, two ornaments on two 16th notes seems pushing it.
>
> The basic problem I'm having, well two really, is 1. you can't do an
> appoggiatura from above if a slur from the same neighbor precedes it. 2.
> Many places call for reiterations to my ear, especially cadences where
> there is a dotted quarter note followed by an eighth (quaver). An
> appoggiatura sounds wimpy there IMO.
>
> Ed Durbrow
> Saitama, Japan